Author Topic: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved  (Read 33219 times)

Offline Shamshiel

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2012, 04:05:34 PM »
I thought it was the goblin Lord Orduluka, or Rafforut, in the Erlking's court, not the Erlking himself.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2012, 04:22:58 PM »
Why does the source of the Hexenwulf belts have to be a heavy weight?

When asked about the belts, Bob said that a sorcerer (someone who isn't even a wizard) could make them.  While wearing a belt (and admittedly not thinking that clearly) Harry didn't think that he would have any problem making up a batch of them.

Later in that book, Harry is thinking "Someone taught Victor and someone made those belts - are they connected", not "someone taught Victor and something incredibly powerful made those belts - are they connected".

Now the sorcerer (or wizard) making the belts might have make a deal with something powerful for the power to make the belts (Bob hinted that the power came from Down Below, as in the Fallen or some other demon) but once he had that power he could hand them out like candy.

Why don't I think it was the Erlking who was behind the belts? Because of the character taken on by those who wore them.  The FBI agents didn't become predators, they became evil predators, acting more wicked than the Erlking seems to be.

Richard

Offline TruffleMuffin

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2012, 05:02:27 PM »
Seems to me like Peabody is a good candidate.

He wrote the book on how to summon the Erlking, which upon being summoned immediately tried to begin the wild hunt. Which kinds of indicates that it was a personal area for extensive research for him.

He is a wizard fairly capable. He was fairly high up in the White Council.

He has used black magic, AND He has black magic to control minds.

He (presumably) is in league with the Black Council/Circle. Though thinking on it, you would think he would of had a copy of his book lying around to help out Cowl and Kumari which suggests a certain individuals acting for the same greater goals but without contact esk feel to the Black Council. Sorry rambling there.

Just my two cents.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2012, 05:16:14 PM »
I'm not sure if everyone who showed up was on the Black Council.  Rather, most of them seemed to be Kemmlerites.  Cowl seemed to be a member of the Black Council who was irritated by the actions of Kemmler's apprentices - upset that they were going to upset his plans.

And he was gathering the books so that the others couldn't use them.

So why get Bob?
a) Bob is a very valuable resource.
b) it explains how he knew what he knew.  Without Bob being there, people might have wondered "how did Cowl know all that? Who told him?" but with Bob around, why would anyone look any further than Bob?

Of course, all of this is conjecture.

Richard

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2012, 05:21:00 PM »
I suspect the Black council had agents in each of the major powers, and that cowl was their agent in kemmler's legion of doomy doom doom.
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Offline Elegast

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2012, 05:43:04 PM »
Why don't I think it was the Erlking who was behind the belts? Because of the character taken on by those who wore them.  The FBI agents didn't become predators, they became evil predators, acting more wicked than the Erlking seems to be.

Yes. But some under his command seem pretty evil: in Changes some goblins want to keep the prisoners in torture chambers for years.
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2012, 05:45:45 PM »
Allow me to rephrase that:
The Erlking respects predators.
Why would he dishonor the wolf by merging a human conscious (and an evil one at that) to a wolf's body?

That just doesn't seem in character for him.

Richard

Offline Shamshiel

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2012, 05:51:19 PM »
I suspect the Black council had agents in each of the major powers, and that cowl was their agent in kemmler's legion of doomy doom doom.

Cowl made it fairly clear he never had anything to do with Kemmler.

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2012, 06:08:49 PM »
Cowl made it fairly clear he never had anything to do with Kemmler.

and you believe him? And if he was the black council's mole all along, wouldnt that answer also apply?
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline Phariah

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2012, 06:28:26 PM »
Cowl made it fairly clear he never had anything to do with Kemmler.
DB chapter 34 page 323(pb)
"we smile at one another and play nicely all in the name of Kemmler's greater glory, of course. ......."
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Offline Shamshiel

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2012, 07:37:28 PM »
DB chapter 34 page 323(pb)
"we smile at one another and play nicely all in the name of Kemmler's greater glory, of course. ......."

Chapter 8, p98.

"Get your own book, Kemmlerite."
"I have nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler."

"Is that what you're doing, destroying copies of the book?"
"Time has taken most of them. We have accounted for the rest." (K)

"Is it not enough that Kemmler's disciples could use this knowledge for great evil?"

"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are madmen. They must be stopped."  (K)

"Do you know why Cowl has made a study of necromancy? [...] Necromancy can be turned upon it's nature[.] Life can be served by that dark power, if one's will and purpose are strong."

"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are determined. I intend to beat them to the prize and use it to destroy them. It's the only way to be sure one of those madmen does not become something more terrible than the Earth has ever seen."

Cowl does imply he's met Grevane and Corpsetaker before. But I think it's clear he was never a mole in any meaningful sense of the word, and very unlikely he ever worked with Kemmler, even as a spy.

We saw that Grevane immediately leapt to the conclusion that Dresden too was a Kemmlerite working towards the same purpose as the others just on the basis of Dresden's aura or magic being tainted. It seems fairly clear that Cowl never worked with Kemmler, or was ever any kind of mole - the actual Kemmlerites just assumed he was because he was going for the Darkhallow, so they assumed he was acting in Kemmler's name. In actuality, Cowl intended on stopping them himself - not because he actually wanted the power for himself, but because he was convinced the Darkhallow was going to happen, and it had better be him there rather than one of the crazy Kemmlerites.

That's important because even though Cowl is a student of necromancy, it's clear his aims and purposes are very, very different than Kemmler's. On the other hand, I think it's important to note Cowl never actually used necromancy once, and his apprentice (?) Kumori only used it to revive the dying guy.

Indeed, in DB at least, I'm almost inclined to believe that Cowl was working at cross-purposes to the BC. The BC (we believe, anyway) has taken every opportunity to throw the world into chaos. Cowl not only seemed intent on stopping (world-wide, not Chicago-wide) chaos and destruction in DB, he alerted Dresden to the corruption on the White Council and clearly seemed to oppose it. He refrained from using black magic at all, and Kumori did only once. Those affected by the BC reek with black magic (the hexen wolves, the curses and rituals.) He seemed mostly reasonable, and spared Dresden many times, even though Dresden's stopped BC plot after BC plot. He's even out there burning books written by a known BC operative, Peabody.

Either way, he may have been BC-aligned during DB, but he wasn't a "mole" and it seems unlikely he ever hung out with Kemmler.

Isn't there a WOJ that some of the people we think are bad may not be? Thinking more on it, Cowl also would have eradicated the White Court vampires if not for Dresden, and we simply don't know enough to judge what the athame situation was about, especially in light of Mab's alleged madness.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 07:44:47 PM by Shamshiel »

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2012, 07:40:25 PM »
My opinion, based on his relationship with Kumori, is Cowl is full of bleep. Look at a man's actionss, not his words: he was goign to kill tens of thousands of people to try and become a god, at which point he probably had soem deal in place to kill the white council and help the reds win the war.

then, afterwards, he tries to restart the war between the white council and the white court.

he may be misguided as heck, but hes not a good guy.
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline Shamshiel

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2012, 07:48:52 PM »
My opinion, based on his relationship with Kumori, is Cowl is full of bleep. Look at a man's actionss, not his words: he was goign to kill tens of thousands of people to try and become a god, at which point he probably had soem deal in place to kill the white council and help the reds win the war.

then, afterwards, he tries to restart the war between the white council and the white court.

he may be misguided as heck, but hes not a good guy.

Cowl evidently believed he couldn't take Grevane or Corpsetaker, or he would have even if his goals had been to start the Darkhallow. Cowl doesn't kill anyone in DB that I can remember. Even in the final battle, he's just standing their veiled as a zombie until the crucial moment.

In White Nights, Cowl would have exterminated the White Court if Dresden hadn't intervened and saved the Raiths (making them more powerful than ever.) Lara was the one who instigated the attacks. We don't know when the Malvora hooked up with Cowl, but the plan was Lara's.

I don't think Cowl is a good guy (though he thinks he is), but I'm not sure that he's BC judging by what we know the BC has tried to do and what Cowl has tried to do. I'd think of him as a darker Dresden.

EDIT: Also, FWIW, it was Cowl and the Malvora who drew Dresden's attentions to the attacks.

EDIT2: Also, I believe it was Corpsetaker and maybe Grevane who had the deal with the Reds. Corpsetaker had dealings with the Fomor in GS, which makes her more suspicious in terms of BC material to me. OTOH, we have evidence Cowl was aware of it, given his statement that the Council would fall within a few days.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 07:58:24 PM by Shamshiel »

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2012, 07:51:57 PM »
Neurove argued for a while that Cowl failed the darkhallow on purpose, that the whole thign was a trap to take out kemmler's people.

my only issue with that is he attempted the ritual, which would have killed tens of thousands.
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline Shamshiel

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Re: WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2012, 08:08:06 PM »
Neurove argued for a while that Cowl failed the darkhallow on purpose, that the whole thign was a trap to take out kemmler's people.

my only issue with that is he attempted the ritual, which would have killed tens of thousands.

Yeah, while Cowl was determined to take out Kemmler's people, he still started the ritual after Grevane and Corpsetaker were incapacitated - although you could at least make the argument that he didn't know about Corpsetaker. I think he was determined to get the Darkhallow because he was convinced he needed the power to stop anyone else from doing the same thing, and for his whole stop-death deal. Ciowl believed the world was shortly going to become a dark place, and he probably felt like he needed the power to do what he could.

There's no chance of Cowl being a "good" guy like Michael, but I think it's quite possible he's a "good guy" like, say, the Blackstaff or Kincaid.

EDIT: Although come to think of it, Corpsetaker was not actually dead. Maybe that's what Cowl meant by the only way to be sure he took them out was by using the Darkhallow, he knew they couldn't be killed even if they were killed.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 08:11:04 PM by Shamshiel »