The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
WOJ: Hexenwufl solved
Ms Duck:
--- Quote from: Shamshiel on April 29, 2012, 08:08:06 PM ---Yeah, while Cowl was determined to take out Kemmler's people, he still started the ritual after Grevane and Corpsetaker were incapacitated - although you could at least make the argument that he didn't know about Corpsetaker. I think he was determined to get the Darkhallow because he was convinced he needed the power to stop anyone else from doing the same thing, and for his whole stop-death deal. Ciowl believed the world was shortly going to become a dark place, and he probably felt like he needed the power to do what he could.
There's no chance of Cowl being a "good" guy like Michael, but I think it's quite possible he's a "good guy" like, say, the Blackstaff or Kincaid.
EDIT: Although come to think of it, Corpsetaker was not actually dead. Maybe that's what Cowl meant by the only way to be sure he took them out was by using the Darkhallow, he knew they couldn't be killed even if they were killed.
--- End quote ---
I think he knew that the power gained from that ritual is not enough to 'stop death' anr remake the world into a paradise. Kumori was young and innocent, and bought that nwhole line hook and sinker.
Phariah:
--- Quote from: Shamshiel on April 29, 2012, 07:37:28 PM ---Chapter 8, p98.
"Get your own book, Kemmlerite."
"I have nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler."
"Is that what you're doing, destroying copies of the book?"
"Time has taken most of them. We have accounted for the rest." (K)
"Is it not enough that Kemmler's disciples could use this knowledge for great evil?"
"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are madmen. They must be stopped." (K)
"Do you know why Cowl has made a study of necromancy? [...] Necromancy can be turned upon it's nature[.] Life can be served by that dark power, if one's will and purpose are strong."
"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are determined. I intend to beat them to the prize and use it to destroy them. It's the only way to be sure one of those madmen does not become something more terrible than the Earth has ever seen."
Cowl does imply he's met Grevane and Corpsetaker before. But I think it's clear he was never a mole in any meaningful sense of the word, and very unlikely he ever worked with Kemmler, even as a spy.
We saw that Grevane immediately leapt to the conclusion that Dresden too was a Kemmlerite working towards the same purpose as the others just on the basis of Dresden's aura or magic being tainted. It seems fairly clear that Cowl never worked with Kemmler, or was ever any kind of mole - the actual Kemmlerites just assumed he was because he was going for the Darkhallow, so they assumed he was acting in Kemmler's name. In actuality, Cowl intended on stopping them himself - not because he actually wanted the power for himself, but because he was convinced the Darkhallow was going to happen, and it had better be him there rather than one of the crazy Kemmlerites.
That's important because even though Cowl is a student of necromancy, it's clear his aims and purposes are very, very different than Kemmler's. On the other hand, I think it's important to note Cowl never actually used necromancy once, and his apprentice (?) Kumori only used it to revive the dying guy.
Indeed, in DB at least, I'm almost inclined to believe that Cowl was working at cross-purposes to the BC. The BC (we believe, anyway) has taken every opportunity to throw the world into chaos. Cowl not only seemed intent on stopping (world-wide, not Chicago-wide) chaos and destruction in DB, he alerted Dresden to the corruption on the White Council and clearly seemed to oppose it. He refrained from using black magic at all, and Kumori did only once. Those affected by the BC reek with black magic (the hexen wolves, the curses and rituals.) He seemed mostly reasonable, and spared Dresden many times, even though Dresden's stopped BC plot after BC plot. He's even out there burning books written by a known BC operative, Peabody.
Either way, he may have been BC-aligned during DB, but he wasn't a "mole" and it seems unlikely he ever hung out with Kemmler.
Isn't there a WOJ that some of the people we think are bad may not be? Thinking more on it, Cowl also would have eradicated the White Court vampires if not for Dresden, and we simply don't know enough to judge what the athame situation was about, especially in light of Mab's alleged madness.
--- End quote ---
1- Grevane didn't think Harry was a Kemmlerite. he sensed dark/ necro magic trace in Harry. that is it. not once did he call him a Kemmlerite.
2- Cowl did not imply he met Grevane and CT before, he comes out and says it directly in that chapter i provided. he speaks and works with them.
3- Harry senses the dark magic in Cowl when they meet in front of the bookstore. much like himself. than when Cowl flees he senses a stronger use of the dark magic. also using the Darkhallow is dark magic. why give away yourself using necro magic if you don't need to? it is a tactical decision.
4- Cowl is bonkers. p324 same chapter. H " your the orrect madman for the job."
C, "i do not percieve myself to be mad. but if i were truly mad, would i be able to tell."
5- he considered himself the lesser of the 3 evils. which is a load of bunk since he would be responsible for killing thousands still by finishing the Darkhallow instead of stopping it.
6- he spared Harry?! he would have killed him in at the book store. he killed him by breaking the circle holding Erl knowing he would come back to kill him. he told dresden if he came to the ritual he would kill him.
7- he wasn't going to wipe out the WCV he was going to place Vitto at its head to run it for him.
8- why not tell him the WCouncil is corrupt it will make him not trust them and take away an ally from him if he stops working with them. he tells them the WC will fall perhaps tomorrow. Cowl was planning on gaining that power from the Darkhallow so he basically said he was going to destroy the WC.
9- he was burning the Erl book because he did not want the summoning ritual to be used by someone to stop the Darkhallow. since he had already had the book he knew the ritual.
Phariah:
--- Quote from: Shamshiel on April 29, 2012, 07:48:52 PM ---Cowl evidently believed he couldn't take Grevane or Corpsetaker, or he would have even if his goals had been to start the Darkhallow. Cowl doesn't kill anyone in DB that I can remember. Even in the final battle, he's just standing their veiled as a zombie until the crucial moment.
In White Nights, Cowl would have exterminated the White Court if Dresden hadn't intervened and saved the Raiths (making them more powerful than ever.) Lara was the one who instigated the attacks. We don't know when the Malvora hooked up with Cowl, but the plan was Lara's.
I don't think Cowl is a good guy (though he thinks he is), but I'm not sure that he's BC judging by what we know the BC has tried to do and what Cowl has tried to do. I'd think of him as a darker Dresden.
EDIT: Also, FWIW, it was Cowl and the Malvora who drew Dresden's attentions to the attacks.
EDIT2: Also, I believe it was Corpsetaker and maybe Grevane who had the deal with the Reds. Corpsetaker had dealings with the Fomor in GS, which makes her more suspicious in terms of BC material to me. OTOH, we have evidence Cowl was aware of it, given his statement that the Council would fall within a few days.
--- End quote ---
in WN Cowl would not have wiped out the WCV. he would have gained contol of them. they were supposed to be involved in the war aiding the RCV. thanks to Dresden backing Lara he took them out of the war. Cowl planned on using Vitto to get them back in the war since the RCV were weakening.
Vitto worked for Cowl and was going to burn a building down and kill dresden and the Ordo. Cowl did not bring Dresden's attention to the culling, Madrigal did it w/out Vitto or Cowl's order.
as for Cowl not killing anyone in DB.... haha. he practically killed Dresden a few times. by breaking the circle he knew the Erl would want to kill him. Harry would have died when Cowl absorbed the Darkhallow as well as Ramirez and thousands of others. only reason he didn't kill Harry was he was worried about Dresden's Death Curse so close to the ritual time.
Shamshiel:
--- Quote from: Phariah on April 29, 2012, 08:21:43 PM ---1- Grevane didn't think Harry was a Kemmlerite. he sensed dark/ necro magic trace in Harry. that is it. not once did he call him a Kemmlerite.
--- End quote ---
He didn't come right out and say it in those words, no. He says "You are, in fact, more of my own persuasion" and "This need not end in bloodshed - particularly not now, so close to the end of the race. Join me against the others." The implication is that he thinks he and Harry have been working at the same goal, Kemmler's teachings, ("the race") and that they should work together against the other Kemmlerites.
--- Quote ---2- Cowl did not imply he met Grevane and CT before, he comes out and says it directly in that chapter i provided. he speaks and works with them.
--- End quote ---
He says he has seen them in action before, and that when it comes down to it, he's the smart one who actually gets things done. That's not the same thing as speaking and working with them.
--- Quote ---3- Harry senses the dark magic in Cowl when they meet in front of the bookstore. much like himself. than when Cowl flees he senses a stronger use of the dark magic. also using the Darkhallow is dark magic. why give away yourself using necro magic if you don't need to? it is a tactical decision.
--- End quote ---
What's tactical about it?
--- Quote ---4- Cowl is bonkers. p324 same chapter. H " your the orrect madman for the job."
C, "i do not percieve myself to be mad. but if i were truly mad, would i be able to tell."
--- End quote ---
He's probably not all there, but he's at least capable of considering the question. Has Harry not wondered the same thing?
--- Quote ---5- he considered himself the lesser of the 3 evils. which is a load of bunk since he would be responsible for killing thousands still by finishing the Darkhallow instead of stopping it.
--- End quote ---
He considered himself different based on what was going happen to the world if Grevane or Corpsetaker ascended versus if he ascended.
--- Quote ---6- he spared Harry?! he would have killed him in at the book store. he killed him by breaking the circle holding Erl knowing he would come back to kill him. he told dresden if he came to the ritual he would kill him.
--- End quote ---
Harry's still alive, isn't he?
He never indicated that he intended to kill Harry at the bookstore. He seemed more interesting in taking the book and testing his strength. He then left when a couple wolves showed up rather than press matters.
He told Harry he would kill him if he got in the way of his plans to save the world from an evil dark god. Harry got in his way twice anyway. He let Harry go after the Erlking summoning, even though he was at his mercy. Yes, he assumed that the Erlking would come back later and finish him off, but he still spared him. He even spared him at the Darkhallow, even when Evil Bob told him the ritual would likely fail with Dresden alive.
--- Quote ---7- he wasn't going to wipe out the WCV he was going to place Vitto at its head to run it for him.
--- End quote ---
Vitto turned on his own people. The Malvoras and Skavis all died, and all the Raiths would have died. The only White Court vampire to survive would have been Vitto, and any lesser vamps who didn't attend. The White Court would have been basically extinct. Nowhere did Cowl or Vitto imply the goal of the operation was to consolidate power under Vitto, and it wouldn't have made very much sense. If that's what they wanted, they should have not involved Dresden and Cowl should have killed the Skavis.
--- Quote ---8- why not tell him the WCouncil is corrupt it will make him not trust them and take away an ally from him if he stops working with them. he tells them the WC will fall perhaps tomorrow. Cowl was planning on gaining that power from the Darkhallow so he basically said he was going to destroy the WC.
--- End quote ---
And why did Cowl need to be so indirect with Harry, who he clearly outclassed? Why did he talk about the horrible things Grevane and Corpsetaker were going to do to the world that he needed to stop?
--- Quote ---9- he was burning the Erl book because he did not want the summoning ritual to be used by someone to stop the Darkhallow. since he had already had the book he knew the ritual.
--- End quote ---
If Cowl was BC, he could have just asked Peabody and they could have never written the book.
--- Quote from: Phariah on April 29, 2012, 08:36:42 PM ---in WN Cowl would not have wiped out the WCV. he would have gained contol of them. they were supposed to be involved in the war aiding the RCV. thanks to Dresden backing Lara he took them out of the war. Cowl planned on using Vitto to get them back in the war since the RCV were weakening.
Vitto worked for Cowl and was going to burn a building down and kill dresden and the Ordo. Cowl did not bring Dresden's attention to the culling, Madrigal did it w/out Vitto or Cowl's order.
as for Cowl not killing anyone in DB.... haha. he practically killed Dresden a few times. by breaking the circle he knew the Erl would want to kill him. Harry would have died when Cowl absorbed the Darkhallow as well as Ramirez and thousands of others. only reason he didn't kill Harry was he was worried about Dresden's Death Curse so close to the ritual time.
--- End quote ---
The only thing Cowl would have gained control of would be the massive pile of WCV corpses he and his agent created.
Lara instigated the Skavis and Malvora plots to kill mortal women, not Cowl. The only direct action Cowl took in White Night was to watch his servant murder nearly all the WCVs. No WCVs would have survived had Dresden not intervened.
Unless Dresden held Erlking in that circle until he died of old age, Dresden had already screwed himself over. Cowl breaking the circle changed nothing with regard to what the Erlking was going to do to Dresden when he got a chance.
Cowl was not afraid of Dresden's death curse, and as Dresden said, he wouldn't need anything near as powerful as his death curse to stop Cowl at the moment he was drawing down the power.
And Cowl's actions in DB were nevertheless very different from the other bad guys, who ran around killing and black magicking indiscriminately. Cowl, meanwhile mugged Dresden, used an EMP, veiled himself, and tried to finish the Darkhallow.
finnmckool:
But the corpses weren't the sum total of the WCV...just the ruling families. Thus leaving Vitto challenger free without having to deal with any of their games, or hide, from his people, his allegiance or purpose. Remember...they're the sneaky, back-stabby manipulators. If there was to be any meaningful and predictable control of them, it'd have to be total. Those were the ruling triumvirate families. There are plenty other "lesser houses" that Vitto could spin whatever he wanted to at, and start with a blank slate. Rebuild as he saw fit with the BC having his back.
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