Baselines of a large LARP game...

[Richard_Chilton]

During a couple of discussions some of us have referenced large LARP organisations.  When you belong to one of those, it will have an impact on how you view rules.  A good impact, a bad impact, or just an impact? Shrug.  That's the ultimate "your mileage may vary" thing.

When you belong to those groups, you show up at a game and there's 20+ people there.  Some games routinely have 30+, others have 50+.

Who are these people? Some of them you know well.  They are the friends that drew to the LARP or the friends you've made since you joined the LARP.

Others - you may only know their character's name.  You wouldn't recogise that guy when he's out of costume.  You have no real connection to him.

Different RPers try to get different things out of RP.  There are the "I'm in Character" types who get together to act like their PCs.  They are there to talk, to scheme, and rarely enter challenges (i.e. rarely have physical conflicts or use their powers offensively).  Then there are those who like throw down with their enemies.  And then there are some who want to WIN.  Yes, I used all caps.  There's a reason for that - they don't want to win, they want to WIN and rub losing into the loser's face.

The people running the game try to handle all styles of play, but there's nothing stopping someone from making a new "I'll play him for tonight and see if I like him or want to keep playing my old PC" type character, making him a one trick combat pony, and trying to kill the character that someone has been playing for the last three years (with XP being spent in ways that increase his RP, not combat, potential).  The in game fallout from that death would be great, but the asshole is really only planning to play the PC for one night so he can spoil someone else's fun.

When you look at the rules the group uses, you have to look all those players - including the ones you would never invite into your home for a table top game.  At http://wiki.white-wolf.com/camwiki/index.php?title=Global_Addendum you will find page after page after page of house rules for WW's LARP games.  They have undergone countless revisions, and (with very few exceptions) every one of those rules exist because of a problem that came up.

One of those rules is:
If you know that something is not the intent of the Camarilla’s interpretation of the books, departs drastically from common sense, or is otherwise wrong but appears to be technically possible due to vague wording or legal loophole, don’t do it. Don’t be that guy (or gal).
---

Because it had to be spelled out.  Funny thing - that's not the original wording of the rule.  The original one didn't mention the group's name so someone showed up at a game with an email from a freelancer that worked on a book, claiming that a power should work in a power monkey way.  After the wording was changed that author (who was on one of the lists) sent the original, non-edited email to a few people, mainly to show that he wasn't a crackhead tripping on acid.

Yes, to get around a "don't exploit something when you know it's not the intent" rule, someone contacted an author and "edited" the answer he got.

You play with a group like that and for a while and you start seeing how rules can be abused or misused because you've met people who want to misuse rules so that they can WIN at role playing.

Being involved with that, it has an impact.

Richard

[Becq]

Preach, brother!

[Silverblaze]

Very well said Richard.

Certainly not all LARPers or Cam or OWBN players are the WIN crowd.  Enough were to make guys like me nervous game balance "nazis".

EDIT: In some cases their simple existence in games forces other players to sort of build characters in a similar fashion.  Forces is the wrong word.  They more or less convince some people to play that way, sometimes on purpose...sometimes others follow suit in an attempt to stay relevant to the story or just not have their PC killed.

[Richard_Chilton]

No, they are the minority.  The 5% that gives the rest a bad name.

Richard

[devonapple]

I am a LARPer. Conventions only, mind you, but I've been doing them for almost 15 years.

With one-shot games, there really isn't the same level of rules munchkining: we give players pregenerated characters. Even so, players can still find angles, weak points, loopholes, or just opt to sacrifice their "life" at the end of a game.

[Sanctaphrax]

I skimmed those rules. They sounded fairly reasonable, I didn't see any clear evidence that the players were terrible. Saw plenty that indicated that the rules were terribly written, though, which is anything but surprising.

Never played a LARP, here, which I don't regret at all.

Kinda wondering what sort of impact you're talking about here.

[Richard_Chilton]

The rules are fair - or at least they try to be as fair as possible.

What did I mean by impact?
You see players sitting down and deliberately stretching mechanics to the breaking point in the hopes that the person running that game won't notice.  You see others trying to bully the people running the game by suggesting that they will either call for a vote or use their connections with the organisation to get something done.  You hear people who should know better saying things like "I'm involved with national plot so you can't look over my character sheet" to the people running the local game.

In short, you see some people at their worse.  Or maybe not - since you don't really know some the people you're playing with you don't know if they are playing an asshole or are one in real life.  You also end up associating with people who you wouldn't invite into your home or sit down and play a game with.  And in associating with them you can learn how they view rules.

In short, you look at rules and say "what could that asshole do with that rule?" then think worse case scenarios.  You look at all the books for the game and see how item A from this book and item B from that book can combine to wreck a game.

Richard

[ways and means]

I am not sure balance is that big an issue in a non-competitive role playing game where it is perfectly possible to scale the opposition to each of the character, what I mean is that I once played a game of Requiem where one munchkin had stacked dementation with blut sorcery and was going round with something like 8 bp in a 4 bp game so our GM had all of the big vampires focusing on him (because 8 bp Vamps are a big deal) and the game was perfectly enjoyable. In Dresden files the balance issue seems even less important as characters mostly become unbalanced when focused exclusively on one trick (for example melee combat or a single element) so they way to balance this is to just have more of other types of challenge and the occasional enemy immune to their particular trick.

[Sanctaphrax]

@Richard_Chilton: Sounds miserable.

Then again, if it beats good game design habits into you then it's worth something. Even with non-pricks, it's best to avoid broken interactions and loopholes.

(Personally, I find that powergaming is only really fun if the rules are generally balanced. Though Pun-Pun and other such experiments are cool to see laid out in theory.)

@ways and means: I agree completely.

Truth is, I care little for balance when I play. I'm only serious about it when I write. Look through my posting history and you'll see what I mean.

[Silverblaze]

Richard explained my position on game design and character creation very well.  I look for all the evil loopholes so I know what to avoid, what not to allow, and what not.

It does provide a good basis for keeping game balance.  I just went off the deep end the other way.  That is just as bad and I think balancing factors for my attitude is a good thing.

[sinker]

Thanks for sharing some of your motivations, guys. It's really interesting to see where others are coming from, and how those origins shape their current attitudes.

I grew up (in gaming) playing diceless games, where trust between the players and GM was paramount. The GM had to be interested only in creating a good story, he had to be invested in the players' having a good time and he had to be fair, because there was no other source of arbitration. You succeeded or failed on his say so, and the players had to trust that when he said you failed it was in the interest of a greater story.

That's why I see the GM as the final arbiter, as the one who should be managing the players in the interest of a better game. It's also why I feel the GM needs to be held to a higher standard, and if he's ever seen as "unfair" or "mean" that it can damage the trust that is so important.

[Silverblaze]

In truth, I started in a small LARP, everyone was friendly for the most part and none of the nonsensery that Richard and I are hating on happened. 

So I was lulled into a false sense of security at age thirteen by small hometown games.  Then I found out the large organizations are so unforgiving, it was actually a worse shock than I've said. 

[Richard_Chilton]

I grew up (in gaming) playing diceless games, where trust between the players and GM was paramount. The GM had to be interested only in creating a good story, he had to be invested in the players' having a good time and he had to be fair, because there was no other source of arbitration. You succeeded or failed on his say so, and the players had to trust that when he said you failed it was in the interest of a greater story.

Running Amber is a great way (perhaps the greatest way) to prep for running a LARP - at least a V:tM LARP.  The rules are so light, the 'dice rolls' is modified rock paper scissors (with various things giving someone the ability to ask for a retest), and the various groups of players will want to do such drastically different things.

Have you heard about the new DRP product at http://ritepublishing.com/dicelessroleplaying.html? It's licensed as a non-Amber version of the Diceless system.

Richard

[Sanctaphrax]

I started out by reading rules. I read a lot before I ever played.

That probably shows in my priorities and preferences. I really like well-written rules, and poor balance/bad writing ticks me off even if it's never going to matter much in-game.