The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Doylist analysis on LC fix timing
knnn:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on April 04, 2012, 06:29:40 PM ----want to risk changing a prophecy to do so
--- End quote ---
What prophecy are you talking about?
Serack:
--- Quote from: lt_murgen on April 04, 2012, 03:30:03 PM ---Going back to the Doylist idea and looking at the writer's reasons, rather than character reasons, I believe such an analysis lends credence to the idea of a time-travelling Harry.
Consider the knowledge of time travel to be a Chekov's gun. It was placed in Proved Guilty as a interesting side note, but not critical to that plot. However, once seen, it can be called upon when it is critical to the plot later.
Consider this: For whatever reason, Harry has to change something in the past, around the time of Proven Guilty. He knows when he will be gone, so he goes back to his apartment to use LC. He runs into Thomas and pretends to be current Harry, in a hurry. He fixed LC and gets the info he needs. But on his way out, he lets something slip that sets Thomas on edge. Thus Thomas greets Harry with suspicion later on in PG.
As far as a reaons, well, this was the book that showed the aftermath of someone's attack on Arctis Tor- another big event that occurred "off camera". Perhaps not forever...
--- End quote ---
Addressing this first then knnn and Duck's responses
Overall I like your ideas, however in TC Harry got a pretty impressive facial scar that would make it hard to pass himself off as his PG past self.
Serack:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on April 04, 2012, 04:39:28 PM ---your doylist explanation needs more doylist explanations ;D
1-if it was future harry, why does he need thomas to let him in?
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The doylist point isn't necessarily that whoever did the fixing needed Thomas to let him in, although that was said to be a possible conclusion. The doylist point is that Jim needed Thomas in the appt when the fixing was done.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on April 04, 2012, 04:39:28 PM ---2- the discussion about time was not about time travel; it was about predicting the future. its about how someone who can see the future, must act in twisty turny methods if they wish to change it.
--- End quote ---
So maybe it's a Chekov's temporal hand grenade rather than a Chekov's laser sighted sniper rifle.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on April 04, 2012, 04:39:28 PM ---2b- thus, if your assumption is corect, a person fore saw that harry would not be there then, and that thomas would be, and then had to talk thomas into letting them in, (since its not future harry, he would not need that coincidence) and its not Eb (he was busy). So how did the gatekeeper talk his way past thomas, a person he had never met before? (and a whampire as well?)
--- End quote ---
Good point about Eb. As for your point about the GK, that's why I pointed out that whoever it was had to already be comfortable with Thomas living there, or know the reason. And as to how he talked Thomas into letting him past the threshold (because that would be the point of Thomas being there for the GK) I'm not going to tell Jim that that's theoretically impossible. It would take some doing to make it work, but it's Jim, and this is all theory craft at the moment.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on April 04, 2012, 04:39:28 PM ---2c- youre ignoring the car hit at the begining of the book. by doylist analysis, that must be crucial as well.
--- End quote ---
I haven't got a good answer for that. I didn't know it was crucial to explain that one detail to maintain the rest of the analysis. Look a rabbit! Ok now the rest of your analysis doesn't work! I don't think so.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on April 04, 2012, 04:39:28 PM ---3- does not explain: the incidents with LC in turn coat, or his headaches in TC
--- End quote ---
Although I am not going to pin down a definitive reason for this as I don't know for sure how relevant the timing of the fix is to these, I can say that if lt_murgen's tie-in his time travel Harry theory with the Arctis Tor raid is a good idea, then it's easy to see how there could be another tie in with Mab messing with Harry's head and such to keep him from breaching that temporal anomaly.
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on April 04, 2012, 04:39:28 PM ---3b- this is important because at some point jim needs to solve most of these mysteries. the list is now long enough that either many of them have one single solution, or hes is going to have a similliarion of his own attached to book 20.
3c- while a 700 page 'mysteries solved' would be awesome, i dont see it selling well. ;D
simpler doylist explanation: Mab. the time travel discussion is about how she foresaw the future, and why she needs to use very twisty methods ( bring molly to AT, to bring harry, etc..) to change it.
doylist within the doylist: unless LC was fixed, mab's plan would not work. ergo, she , prior to implementing her plan, made sure all parts were operational.
DwD2- this explains the exact wording she used in her bargian with harry in sk.
- also the clues given in TC, SmF, C, and GS
(I dont mind doylist analysis. I just think if youre going to do it, you need to to do it on all the books as one piece. too many of the mysteries depend on clues in prior or later books.)
- the quacker.
--- End quote ---
I am going to have to heartily disagree with you here. Each time I make a supposition based off of another supposition, to explain another detail that Jim fleshed out 3 years later, I am risking following further down a possibly wrong trail. I can still use doyalist analysis to gently thread down different small parts of theory to attempt to get meaningful explanations for partially isolated issues before I attempt to fit them into the grand scheme.
Even if it ends up that these few "puzzle pieces" don't fit together in this manor, I might glean some insight on the overall puzzle by this close scrutiny of the relationships between those pieces even without getting them to fit together on this attempt. So summary dismissal of the technique is... preemptive.
Edit: I'll have to step away for a bit before I decide if I want to address further arguments like this one.
Electric MacButters:
Ms Duck,
I have read your stipulations, and the only rebuttal I have to your conclusion that Mab is the only possible choice is the fact that the theory I posted earlier in the thread fits all of your stipulations and does not conclude that Mab had to do it. I will allow the possibility that Mab may have done it, but based on your own requirements, there are multiple possible perpitrators who could have done the deed including (but not limited to) Mab, time traveling Harry, time traveling Molly, the Gatekeeper, Lara Raith, any member of the Oblivion War vouchsafed by Lara, Michael Carpenter acting under orders from the archangels, the Burger King after offering Thomas a post-coital breakfast sandwich, Mister, Mac, or any mage talented enough with glamours to confuse Thomas.
I am concerned that you may be insisting that this particular conspiracy ties in with other conspiracies because it reinforces your theories regarding the other conspiracies if it is true, not because of any evidence that the conspiracies are related.
ReturnToOne:
So then by this logic who ever it was that fixed lc needed someone to let them either past the wards and/or past the threshold (at least so they could use magic while in harry's apartment) AND was either someone Thomas trusted or could fool him into letting them in.
Oddly enough it makes Mab (or Lea) more likely than future Harry baring some special rule about time travelers and thresholds. but it also means any witch or wizard who are decent at illusions or transformation would have been capable, notable examples being Elain or Joe (or if your in need of a time travel fix future molly ;) ). however the pool of people thomas would have trusted AND would be capable(ability and knowledge) and interested in fixing it is remarkable small.
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