The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Questions
Serack:
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 15, 2012, 05:03:04 PM ---The difference between what you say and what Ms. Duck is saying is that you believe that Harry's stubbornness somehow makes some of Lasciel's Shadow's options no longer available by reason of being impossible, while she (and I) believe his stubbornnes makes some of her options no longer available by reason of being dumb/counterproductive instead.
(Apologies to Ms. Duck if I misunderstood her.)
--- End quote ---
be back later to address the bulk of your post, I have something else pressing on me. However I wanted to be clear that by external hurdle, I ment from another entity, I.E. Mab.
AcornArmy:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on March 15, 2012, 02:41:09 PM ---The singing i refered too was the rolling stones. I think she was taking time to move in, was concerned about the possibility of getting evicted by a greater power (such as mab) and decided to lay low and be subtle. Lash had to be aware that mab was chasing him at this point.
--- End quote ---
The thing is... if you can transfer an entire copy of yourself into someone else's mind, you can surely speak to that mind, as well. And why bother with letting your copy talk when you, the larger, more truly powerful version of you, can speak for yourself instead? Prior to Harry placing the coin in the steel ring and burying it, there's no reason to assume one version of Lasciel over the other is doing the talking, except for the fact that one version is the true Lasciel and the other is just a shadow of her. Why let an inferior copy handle the conversation? While the coin was in Harry's possession, I think Lasciel herself was doing the talking.
Even if the steel circle didn't do anything to block Lasciel's contact with Lash, dropping the coin and burying it at least kept it away from Harry, which kept the full power of the Fallen in the coin away from Harry's mind. And I think Cozarkian could be right about the conscious act of sealing away the coin having the effect of preventing Lash from speaking to his conscious mind. Even if the magic of the circle itself didn't help, the act of burying the coin may have had the effect that Harry was hoping for, or most of it, anyway.
From the way things went in Dead Beat, it seemed that Lash was technically capable of communicating with Harry's conscious mind the whole time, but doing so would have broken some sort of rule. And I don't think that's a negligible thing; consider the fact that the entire story of Ghost Story only happened because a Fallen broke a rule and spoke seven words into Harry's mind. Because of that, Uriel was allowed to take his own swing at bat, which ended up not only getting Harry back into his body, but fortifying his will against Mab. To me, the seven words thing in GS made the idea of Lash not being allowed to speak to Harry much more believable and understandable, because clearly Someone up there in the Dresdenverse is keeping track of everything that comes out of a Fallen's mouth. You know, so to speak. And while the shadow may be much less powerful, they still hold some portion of the Fallen's power, and possibly all of its knowledge-- which is a huge portion of its power, all by itself.
knnn:
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 15, 2012, 05:03:04 PM ---- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
--- End quote ---
As I see it, the weakness in your answer is that it seems common knowledge (the Knights, Nic) that nobody ever resists a shadow more than a few weeks before taking up a coin, yet Harry seems to have had no such issue/conflict between DM and DB (about one whole year). If Lash was able to, you'd think she would have started building "Sheila's" persona a whole lot earlier - to use at the appropriate moment.
Serack:
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 15, 2012, 05:03:04 PM ---Using and abusing memes amuses me. This one in particular comes from fanfiction websites.
I agree with you, by definition, Occam's Razor is never a strong argument. It's more of a gut check than anything, namely "Am I adding this complexity because it makes sense with the evidence available, or am I adding this complexity because it appeals to me in some way?"
Basically, I believe there's two questions; we agree on one, but disagree on the other:
1. Why did Lasciel's Shadow wait from the actions of Blood Rites (or whenever Id!Harry started talking to her, makes no difference) until the actions of Dead Beat before "cheating"?
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
- Your answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage (or as you put it, "[...]she chose to pull that card dispite the consequences of "crossing the line" because she saw that he was undergoing some stressful situations[...]").
2. Why did Lasciel's Shadow not "cheat" from the moment Harry empowered the circle until the actions of Blood Rites (or whenever Id!Harry started talking to her, makes no difference)?
- My answer: she was waiting for the time where cheating would give her the most advantage.
- Your answer: empowering the circle somehow makes cheating impossible for her until Harry's actions in Blood Rites.
You gotta admit, it's a little out of left field. To use a word I used previously, it seems inconsistent (I know, there's no reason to believe Lasciel's Shadow would follow fair rules, but there you go).
--- End quote ---
If I have to admit that it's a little out of left field, then I'll also point out that it took years (2 years 8 months per the timeline) to get all the way there. Which is kinda what knnn is saying in reply #77.
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 15, 2012, 05:03:04 PM ---
--- Quote from: Serack on March 15, 2012, 12:46:57 PM ---To me, those two statements are completely contradictory... My conceptualization of DV magic is the altering of reality with your will. So in those terms Harry's empowering the circle was a willful alteration of Lasciel's ability to influence him. Thus it was a sucessful magical spell, not an empty gesture that did absolutely nothing.
--- End quote ---
I have Doylist issues with this assertion, rather than Watsonian ones. You make it sound like the only reason Harry managed to cut the Shadow off from his conscious mind was because he'd been trained in the art of focusing his will to alter reality (A.K.A. magic). I want the aesop to be "Harry resisted Lasciel's Shadow because he's a good man"; I don't want the fantastic aesop to be "Harry resisted Lasciel's Shadow because he can do magic". I believe this is what Ms. Duck means by saying we are underestimating Harry.
(From a Watsonian perspective, we know one can renounce a coin without magic, since Sanya did it. So, I guess I have Watsonian issues with it, too.)
--- End quote ---
To Harry everything is a spell. (The DFRPG and I think WoJ refer to this as, "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail") Don't forget how the books pontificate on the amount of magic in a baby's laugh, and an entire stadium shouting "HAY!" after that silly tune. In otherwords, you may be putting too much emphasis on Harry's training to interpret my claims about his isolating himself from the coin's influence with magic. From certain perspectives there probably is something magical about Sanya throwing his coin into a canal.
For a little extra flavor, here is an excerpt from an article Jacqueline Lichtenberg wrote after actually asking Jim about this subject in an interview shortly after WN was released.
--- Quote from: Jacqueline Lichtenberg ---In the previous novels, Butcher has painted Dresden into a really dark corner with his increasingly facile use of the demon’s power. Meanwhile, point by point, Butcher has unfolded the laws of magic in his universe. That led me to expect a very Qabalistic resolution of the Demon haunting problem, but that wasn’t Butcher’s plan.
White Night ends with a resolution of the problem of the Demon shadowing Dresden. I pointed out to him during this interview that the ending of White Night really wasn’t a fulfillment of the Worldbuilding he had done. And I asked what principle of magic he used to solve the problem.
He answered not by referring to the principles of magic built into his world, but by referring to a writing principle. He went to the basic-traits list of the character sketch for Harry Dresden.
One precious gift that has emerged as central is Harry’s gift for empowering others. He lives a daily struggle to master control of his own Power – and though he hasn’t succeeded, he has become strong, and a catalyst of strength.
In fact, the Dresden Files series is about Power, its danger, use and abuse.
Butcher explains that Lashiel’s Shadow has the potential for Darkness but Harry is used to handling Dark Power. By refusing to give in to Lashiel’s attempt to seduce him with Power, and change him, Dresden reversed the force back upon her and she changed instead.
--- End quote ---
Ms Duck:
I think that quote supports my side more- that the circle has nothing to do with it; harry is just that cool. And where is this few weeks coming from? The quote i rember is that lash is impressed by three years...meaning other folks could certainly last a year or two. As to why the shadow, it probably is part of the rules. I doubt a mortal mind can withstand direct contact, thus abrogating the freedom of choice.
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