The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
Questions
AcornArmy:
--- Quote from: Ms Duck on March 15, 2012, 07:55:12 PM ---As to why the shadow, it probably is part of the rules. I doubt a mortal mind can withstand direct contact, thus abrogating the freedom of choice.
--- End quote ---
A mortal mind definitely can't hold up under the psychic pressure of continuous, direct contact with one of the Fallen, which is the whole point behind Harry burying the coin and refusing to take it up. Harry knew he would never be able to hold off the real Lasciel.
Just so I'm clear, you're suggesting that Lasciel was always in contact with Lash, even after he buried the coin, right? That Lasciel never spoke to Harry directly, and in fact cannot speak directly to a mortal, but has to use the shadow as a mouthpiece?
wyltok:
--- Quote from: knnn on March 15, 2012, 05:50:27 PM ---As I see it, the weakness in your answer is that it seems common knowledge (the Knights, Nic) that nobody ever resists a shadow more than a few weeks before taking up a coin, yet Harry seems to have had no such issue/conflict between DM and DB (about one whole year). If Lash was able to, you'd think she would have started building "Sheila's" persona a whole lot earlier - to use at the appropriate moment.
--- End quote ---
Look at the type of people the Denarians usually go for:
--- Quote from: Small Favor ---"Tessa chooses their hosts from among the downtrodden, the desperate, those who believe that they have nothing to lose. Those who will succumb to temptation the most rapidly."
I grunted. “Lot of those around in the wake of a big nasty plague. Or any kind of similar chaos.”
“Yes. We believe that it is one reason she collaborates with Nicodemus from time to time.”
“She’s focused on short-term,” I said, getting it. “He’s all about the long view.”
“Exactly,” Michael said. “When he threw Lasciel’s coin at my son, it was a calculated gesture.”
“Calculated to rope me in,” I said.
“You,” Michael said, “or my son.”
--- End quote ---
That's bound to skew the average considerably. Look at Nicodemus' reaction in the same book:
--- Quote from: Small Favor --- “Oh, I picked the right coin for you.” He started to walk in a slow circle around me, the way you might a car at the dealership. “There are rumors that a certain Warden has been flinging Hellfire at his foes. How do you like it?”
“I’d like it better if it came in Pine Fresh and New Car instead of only Rotting Egg,” I said.
Nicodemus completed his circuit of me and arched an eyebrow. “You haven’t taken up the coin.”
“I would, but it’s in my piggybank,” I said, “and I can’t break the piggy, obviously. He’s too cute.”
“Lasciel’s shadow must be slipping,” Nicodemus said, shaking his head. “It has had years to reason with you, and still you refuse our gifts.”
“What with the curly little tail and the big, sad brown eyes,” I said, as if he hadn’t said anything.
One of his heels hit the ground with unnecessary force, and he stopped walking. He inhaled through his nose and out again. “Definitely the proper coin for you.”
--- End quote ---
On the one hand, he acts somewhat surprised that Lasciel's shadow hasn't managed to tempt him yet. But it's an "huh, that's odd" level of surprise not a "that's impossible" level of surprise (such as he'll show just a little later in the book). We know/believe Nicodemus thinks long term. He naturally expects that even if Harry picks up the coin, he won't instantly grow a goatee, but rather try to keep it hidden from his allies as long as possible. He never bothered looking for Harry again after giving him the coin, so clearly, his plans did not require/expect Harry taking up Lasciel right this instant.
I suspect Lasciel's Shadow was smart enough to realize she had no real hurry to corrupt Harry, and knew that if she wasn't subtle enough about it, Michael and Co. would do everything in their power to oppose her. Discretion was the better part of valor, that's all. Heck, we know/believe Lasciel and Anduriel don't get along. From Nicodemus' reaction above I would hazard the thought Nick thought Lasciel was taking her time just to be contrary (just like Harry is).
--- Quote from: Serack on March 15, 2012, 06:24:55 PM ---To Harry everything is a spell. (The DFRPG and I think WoJ refer to this as, "If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail") Don't forget how the books pontificate on the amount of magic in a baby's laugh, and an entire stadium shouting "HAY!" after that silly tune. In otherwords, you may be putting too much emphasis on Harry's training to interpret my claims about his isolating himself from the coin's influence with magic. From certain perspectives there probably is something magical about Sanya throwing his coin into a canal.
--- End quote ---
Hm, let's use another example that's also from the books: what Harry calls "Old World Rules". Let's pick one specific one: keeping your promises. We know that Fae have to keep their word. We know that a wizard who makes a promise upon his power has to keep his word, or his own magic will attack him. Someone like Lara Raith, on the other hand, is free to go against her word. However, she never does, and whenever Harry suggests to her that she could, she looks at him as though he suddenly started talking an alien language. She's not constrained from breaking her word by any power or magic like the Fae are, but her own upbringing / self-interest make the idea basically impossible.
I want to believe the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where Sanya bears the Sword of Hope because he's the kind of guy that laughs when Rosanna tries to tempt him once again. I don't like thinking that the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where the Sword of Hope needs to protect Sanya from Rosanna's new temptation (I'm willing to accept a world that's a little of both, of course; shades of gray ftw).
A world where Lasciel's shadow is constrained by Harry enclosing the coin in a circle in the same way a Fae is constrained to keep its word has less appeal to me than a world where Harry enclosing the coin in a circle constrains Lasciel's Shadow the same way Lara Raith is constrained to keep her word.
Thrice I ask and done: which is the one your theory is describing?
(I admit, I've been wanting to say that for a while)
knnn:
From White Night (Harry talking to Lash):
--- Quote ---{Harry} How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for more than a few weeks, huh? Longer than three years?
{Lash} Never.
--- End quote ---
Ms Duck:
Just to be clear: i beleive that at the moment harry picked up the coin, the shadow entered him. At that moment was the .only contact between lasciel and harry. She never contafcted him or lash again until her new host in changes. Harrys only contact was allways with lash. I believe its part of the rules - the fallen remains in the coin, trapped, and with very limited awareness or power until a mortal chooses to take it up of thie own free will. The shadow is just the sales department.
Serack:
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 15, 2012, 08:11:56 PM ---Look at the type of people the Denarians usually go for:
That's bound to skew the average considerably. Look at Nicodemus' reaction in the same book:
On the one hand, he acts somewhat surprised that Lasciel's shadow hasn't managed to tempt him yet. But it's an "huh, that's odd" level of surprise not a "that's impossible" level of surprise (such as he'll show just a little later in the book). We know/believe Nicodemus thinks long term. He naturally expects that even if Harry picks up the coin, he won't instantly grow a goatee, but rather try to keep it hidden from his allies as long as possible. He never bothered looking for Harry again after giving him the coin, so clearly, his plans did not require/expect Harry taking up Lasciel right this instant.
I suspect Lasciel's Shadow was smart enough to realize she had no real hurry to corrupt Harry, and knew that if she wasn't subtle enough about it, Michael and Co. would do everything in their power to oppose her. Discretion was the better part of valor, that's all. Heck, we know/believe Lasciel and Anduriel don't get along. From Nicodemus' reaction above I would hazard the thought Nick thought Lasciel was taking her time just to be contrary (just like Harry is).
--- End quote ---
Most of the underlying thoughts behind my theories on this subject were developed in the books prior to SmF, and I have to admit that when Nic made those comments about Lasciel's shadow, I was rather surprised. Up until then I was still thinking that having a demonic shadow so discrete (m-w.com: constituting a separate entity : individually distinct) from the original demon was pretty unique to Harry... I figured that typically the "shadow" gets reabsorbed (Lash's term actually) into the original demon so much earlier in the process, or that it typically isn't usually so thoroughly cut off from the original entity, that referring to it as its own entity rather than just as "Lasciel" would be kinda pointless.
So those 2 bits of dialogue from Nic in SmF really threw a monkey into my ideas more than most of the arguments that have been made in this thread have.
--- Quote from: wyltok on March 15, 2012, 08:11:56 PM ---Hm, let's use another example that's also from the books: what Harry calls "Old World Rules". Let's pick one specific one: keeping your promises. We know that Fae have to keep their word. We know that a wizard who makes a promise upon his power has to keep his word, or his own magic will attack him. Someone like Lara Raith, on the other hand, is free to go against her word. However, she never does, and whenever Harry suggests to her that she could, she looks at him as though he suddenly started talking an alien language. She's not constrained from breaking her word by any power or magic like the Fae are, but her own upbringing / self-interest make the idea basically impossible.
I want to believe the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where Sanya bears the Sword of Hope because he's the kind of guy that laughs when Rosanna tries to tempt him once again. I don't like thinking that the Dresdenverse is the kind of place where the Sword of Hope needs to protect Sanya from Rosanna's new temptation (I'm willing to accept a world that's a little of both, of course; shades of gray ftw).
--- End quote ---
Unfortunately, this has taken on an entirely new meaning to me after reading this article earlier today.
--- Quote ---A world where Lasciel's shadow is constrained by Harry enclosing the coin in a circle in the same way a Fae is constrained to keep its word has less appeal to me than a world where Harry enclosing the coin in a circle constrains Lasciel's Shadow the same way Lara Raith is constrained to keep her word.
Thrice I ask and done: which is the one your theory is describing?
(I admit, I've been wanting to say that for a while)
--- End quote ---
Honestly, when you try to delineate them into two opposing theories, I keep hearing the opposing theory as "The circle/prison was pointless" even though that is not exactly what you are saying. This... mental quirk makes it hard for me to actually address the actual question for some reason. I can say that I am rather disabused of the idea that the circle was responsible for completely isolated from the originating demon in a manor unique to Harry, and because of that I am not as attached to the idea that the prison was as... fundamentally constraining as you describe it...
I'm actually starting to think of it as being caught between the two states, being both a wave and a particle at the same time. And I don't know the box will ever really be opened either (yah I mixed my quantum theory metaphors there)
Edit: I was going to edit in some extra thoughts, but they got long enough to justify a new post.
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