Author Topic: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?  (Read 7593 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2012, 07:09:39 PM »
I really think that people are overvaluing this. I'd say that Ritual-as-Evocation is worth 1 Refresh for someone who already has Ritual. Canonical Sponsored Magic backs me up on this. And since Thaumaturgy is 1 refresh more expensive than Ritual, it stands to reason that Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation is worth 2 refresh if you already have Thaumaturgy.

So it's probably worth 5 refresh if you don't have Thaumaturgy.

I simply cannot understand why anyone would think that 7 or 10 Refresh would be reasonable.

(Also, 2 Evocation elements should only cost 1 refresh since you aren't getting free specializations along with your elements here.)

PS: I think that refusing a debt compel with a FP voids that point of debt. YS 288 is where I got that idea from.

Offline Gatts

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2012, 09:34:02 PM »
I really think that people are overvaluing this. I'd say that Ritual-as-Evocation is worth 1 Refresh for someone who already has Ritual. Canonical Sponsored Magic backs me up on this. And since Thaumaturgy is 1 refresh more expensive than Ritual, it stands to reason that Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation is worth 2 refresh if you already have Thaumaturgy.

So it's probably worth 5 refresh if you don't have Thaumaturgy.

I simply cannot understand why anyone would think that 7 or 10 Refresh would be reasonable.

(Also, 2 Evocation elements should only cost 1 refresh since you aren't getting free specializations along with your elements here.)

PS: I think that refusing a debt compel with a FP voids that point of debt. YS 288 is where I got that idea from.

Thanks very much, and thanks to everyone else for all their help. I'll run it by my GM and see how it goes.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2012, 10:59:49 PM »
Wyvern is correct, you can say no to a debt compel. 

PS: I think that refusing a debt compel with a FP voids that point of debt. YS 288 is where I got that idea from.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "void" but refusing a compel costs you a fate point and does not reduce your debt.  However, you can't be compelled for the same thing after refusing it.

I read it as being able to draw a line in the sand saying "I'm not going to commit <that act> for my sponsor."  It goes along with some of the later advice to Harry on dealing with Mab.  The sponsor may make certain things attractive and easy, but you aren't a slave. 

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@Gatts - The ability to use Ritual at evocation's speed, etc is essentially taking Channeling for the Ritual's theme...but better.  So I'd start with the cost of Channeling as my minimum unless you already have Channeling for the appropriate theme.  If you have it, I'd probably just charge one refresh.
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Offline Gatts

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2012, 11:12:10 PM »
Sorry to resurrect the thread, but it appears that things are rather more complex than I first thought. While we're playing in the Dresden Files system, the setting we're using is Mage: The Awakening, which has resulted in a couple of changes.

  • A) The elements for Evocation are now the Mage Arcana: Time, Space, Fate, Mind, Death, Matter, Forces, Spirit, Life, Prime
  • B) Thaumaturgy is now restricted to three Arcana, in the same manner as Evocation. These work a little like thematic Thaumaturgy, with the same list as above.

With this in mind, it seems like taking Thaumaturgy at 5 refresh is better in every respect than taking Evocation AND Thaumaturgy, and that would still be the case if it were priced at 6 refresh. I'm hoping someone will come in and correct me on this, but I'm not getting my hopes up. So thanks in advance for any help.

@Gatts - The ability to use Ritual at evocation's speed, etc is essentially taking Channeling for the Ritual's theme...but better.  So I'd start with the cost of Channeling as my minimum unless you already have Channeling for the appropriate theme.  If you have it, I'd probably just charge one refresh.

It looks like you're right, and 5 refresh for Ritual atthespeedofevocation is the minimum.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 11:15:38 PM by Gatts »

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2012, 02:50:16 PM »
Yes, even without that in mind, Thaumaturgy at 5 refresh with evocation's methods and speed would be better than taking evocation and thaumaturgy.  Thaumaturgy can replicate basically everything evocation does. 

At the very least, it should be priced at 6 refresh.  I'd wouldn't allow it for less than 8.  I'd give a rebate of 3 if you already had Evocation.

Offline wyvern

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2012, 06:05:39 PM »
Sorry to resurrect the thread, but it appears that things are rather more complex than I first thought. While we're playing in the Dresden Files system, the setting we're using is Mage: The Awakening, which has resulted in a couple of changes.

Given that, I'd suggest talking to your GM - that's a sufficiently fundamental shift in setting & game mechanics that this sort of question should really be decided by your group, as a deliberate choice in the context of the game world.  For such a setting, I'd probably default to either: allowing evothaum as just a normal part of evocation (if you also have thaumaturgy for the relevant sphere), or allowing evothaum for your evocation rotes (only, & subject to the same limitation of needing actual thaumaturgy as well), depending on which version of Mage rules you're starting with.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2012, 09:48:40 PM »
Evothaum is not strictly better than evocation. Evocations, unlike rituals, have weapon ratings.

Though on further thought, I'm starting to think that it might be a good idea to require some level of both evocation and thaumaturgy for this. I stand by the 2 Refresh cost, but I think I might want to expand the prerequisites.

My reading of sponsor debt is that if you spend the FP to resist a debt compel the point of debt that fuelled that compel is still spent. After all, you spent the FP you "borrowed".

Is there some evidence to the contrary somewhere that I missed?

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2012, 10:31:02 PM »
Evothaum is not strictly better than evocation. Evocations, unlike rituals, have weapon ratings.
Well...you have a good point but you need to balance it against no mental stress and not being subject to evocation's limitations. 

I do think requiring both before extending thaumaturgy is a good approach.  Or charge more and give discounts as Sponsored Magic does...which is close to the same thing.
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Offline Becq

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2012, 11:08:14 PM »
I'm of the opinion that characters probably shouldn't have evothaum, except within the mixed blessing framework of sponsored magic.  But for those who do, consider:
1) Custom power creation uses the same baseline guidelines as stunts, but are allowed a bit more punch.
2) Options for stunts include:
Quote from: YS148
Reduce the amount of time necessary to complete a particular task by two steps.
3) Thaumaturgy cast as Evocation would have the same effective limits on complexity as Evocations do on power, so it's unlikely to see spells that would normally be hours-long rituals be cast this way.  For the most part, this capability would cover spells that might otherwise take, say, minutes.  Maybe 15 minutes or so at most?
4) Going from "15 minutes" down to "a few moments" (ie, a combat exchange) on the time chart (YS315) is four shifts.

Given the above, it seems to me that the price point for a Power that causes Thaumaturgy to be cast at Evocation's speed is on the order of -2 Refresh (which buys a four shift reduction on the time chart when performing Thaumaturgy, and would be on top of the cost for Thaumaturgy itself).  Maybe less (-1 might be too little, though), considering that Thaum at Evo speed doesn't effect much more complex Thaum cast not at Evo speed (ie, you can't cast a ritual that might normally take a week in a few hours).  As I said, I wouldn't make such a power available; just going through the logic problem of how such a thing might be costed.
 
My reading of sponsor debt is that if you spend the FP to resist a debt compel the point of debt that fuelled that compel is still spent. After all, you spent the FP you "borrowed".

Is there some evidence to the contrary somewhere that I missed?
Here:
Quote from: YS288, sidebar
"When you spend a fate point to resist a sponsor’s debt compel, does your debt still go down?"
"No, it doesn’t. But the sponsor can’t force that same issue again, either. You get to refuse that specific compel. But another one — and granted, a different one — is headed your way later."

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2012, 04:09:08 AM »
Well...you have a good point but you need to balance it against no mental stress and not being subject to evocation's limitations. 

'Evocation's methods' include paying mental stress.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2012, 04:21:55 AM »
'Evocation's methods' include paying mental stress.
Can you provide a reference?  Or is that an assumption?  I don't see mental stress listed in the "With Evocation's Methods and Speed"...here's what it means: text on YS288.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2012, 05:57:05 PM »
It is an inference from:
"The spell is cast like evocation:
power first, control later, all done in
one exchange"

Paying mental stress is an integral part of how evocation summons power.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 06:46:41 PM »
Hmm, that's a bigger leap than I'm willing to make.  It is still thaumaturgy after all.  Perhaps more to the point, the line you quote is discussing casting methods not costs. 

To put it in perspective, if it does cost mental stress, how is it different from a stunt allowing use of Lore instead of Conviction for evocation power? 

I'll have to reread thesection when I have time this evening.
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 06:49:27 PM »
Hmm, that's a bigger leap than I'm willing to make.  It is still thaumaturgy after all.  Perhaps more to the point, the line you quote is discussing casting methods not costs. 

If it doesn't, then where is the power coming from? I agree, paying Mental Stress for Thaumaturgy is pretty dire, but I have been figuring the advantage is in scope of effect, and possibly duration. I'm open to having my mind changed.
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Offline wyvern

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Re: Speed and Method of Evocation . . . without Sponsored Magic?
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 06:50:01 PM »
Uh, the cost is part of the methods?  And it's different from your proposed stunt in two ways: evothaum still bases its power off conviction, and evothaum can do things that evocation simply can't - like healing someone, or establishing a ward that lasts for a day, or other complex or long-lasting effects.