Author Topic: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver  (Read 3369 times)

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2012, 10:10:22 PM »
What your table negotiates to isn't my point - the negotiation process itself is.   ;)

While the negotiated nature of compels is something I feel needs to be more frequently and strongly reinforced on these boards, my point was to say that your suggested alternative should not be any more acceptable than the original offer because it is, ultimately, only a hairsbreadth away.
Perhaps your suggestion wasn't meant to be taken that seriously, but backing away chanting 'your table, your rules' isn't particularly conducive to discussion.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2012, 10:41:32 PM »
While the negotiated nature of compels is something I feel needs to be more frequently and strongly reinforced on these boards, my point was to say that your suggested alternative should not be any more acceptable than the original offer because it is, ultimately, only a hairsbreadth away.
It may not be acceptable to you, why do you think it should therefore be unacceptable to everyone else?  This what negotiation is there to resolve.  Player A wants to compel death, player B thinks aspects shouldn't cause any damage...talk it out.  Negotiate.  Compromise even.  Get the table's consensus and move on with play.  :)

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Perhaps your suggestion wasn't meant to be taken that seriously, but backing away chanting 'your table, your rules' isn't particularly conducive to discussion.
Yet that is the rule.  Negotiation at each given table.  And I think it allows far more room for discussion than some form of absolutism.

As for what I think personally, I don't see any issue with consequences being a negotiated part of a compel.  Or a concession.  Or even used to succeed at casting a spell.  That doesn't mean I'd agree to it every time, it does need to make sense in the situation.  In the end, consequences are simply something important to the narrative. 

The book appears to suggest just about anything is open to negotiation as part of a compel.  It even uses losing initiative and being unaware of an opponent as one example. 

Final point - the initial aspect should also be negotiated.  Perhaps it never should have been "Face Covered with Water" in the first place if you don't want to allow the effects of that to shape your story.
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2012, 11:27:08 PM »
I don't think that an aspect can be used to take out an enemy but I think it defiantly could be used to cause a concession for example invoking for effect the mental consequence 'terrified of X' to cause an enemy to flee would be such an example.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2012, 11:31:44 PM »
Umbra, if you truly are of the opinion that everything should be relegated to 'negotiation at each given table' why do you bother engaging in rules discussion on this forum in the first place?
The point, here, is to try to arrive at some sort of common understanding of the rules of the system.  The limits, if there are any, of what a compel is able to accomplish clearly qualifies.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 01:42:29 AM »
I'll answer these in reverse order...
The point, here, is to try to arrive at some sort of common understanding of the rules of the system.
I hope not!  I certainly don't see a lot of agreement on the internet and don't like failure enough to keep coming back and failing to get agreement...if that were the point.   ;)

Umbra, if you truly are of the opinion that everything should be relegated to 'negotiation at each given table' why do you bother engaging in rules discussion on this forum in the first place?
Many reasons but three stand out here.  Discussing a shared interest is often enjoyable simply for the discussion itself.  Better yet, discussions often spark creativity - help you work through new ideas or open access to someone else's ideas.  Most of all, it's to learn something - different perspectives can change your point of view even if you still disagree. 

The world would be a boring place if we all knew everything and didn't disagree.
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FATE is tied very closely to modifying a shared narrative - building a story by consensus.  Both stories and consensus are strongly flavored by perspective.  Given that, would you really expect a line drawn in concrete somewhere stating "This ye shall not pass"? 
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 01:49:00 AM »
would you really expect a line drawn in concrete somewhere stating "This ye shall not pass"?

I would appreciate some attempt to derive a line drawn somewhere stating 'a substantial portion of the community deems this unwise and/or unbalancing'.

I do not understand the reticence to attempt deriving such.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 02:14:30 AM »
I would appreciate some attempt to derive a line drawn somewhere stating 'a substantial portion of the community deems this unwise and/or unbalancing'.
This much is sometimes possible...yet even this is colored by experience and perspective.  But, to paraphrase Feynman, not "knowing" is great - it's the search which is rewarding.  Or, in this case, it's looking at all the different perspectives and possibilities.

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I do not understand the reticence to attempt deriving such.
Don't misunderstand, there's a difference between explaining a point of view (even persuasively) and expecting, or even desiring, consistent success in changing minds.  The first makes for a good discussion while the latter makes for good preaching.  I'm no preacher.   ;)
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Offline archmagelite

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 11:49:44 PM »
By generating the "drowning aspect" on a person with a manuever, do you then take into account the drowning environmental dmg discussed in the "story" book. Same with "on fire" aspect, or suffocating from being dropped into an earth evokers mud/sand pit? A couple of these have come up in my game recently i ruled that if the victom is suffering from a manuever and cant break it, then yes they take the extra damage from environmental factors. Usually a 3 stress hit from fire and a 5 stress hit from drowning.

Offline sinker

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2012, 01:11:22 AM »
That's a possible way of dealing with it, though Fred will likely tell you that it's the most boring way to deal with it. Better is to allow the aspect to shape the narrative instead.

Offline Becq

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 04:14:07 AM »
I would appreciate some attempt to derive a line drawn somewhere stating 'a substantial portion of the community deems this unwise and/or unbalancing'.
For what it's worth, here are my thoughts on how to start looking for this line:

Data point 1: The most basic use of an aspect is to turn a fate point (or a free tag) into a +2 to a roll.  It seems to me that this sets a reasonable baseline for how effective other uses of aspects should be -- that is, "not much more than two shifts".

Data point 2: A maneuver allows you to convert an action into an aspect plus a free tag.  Reverse this to see that spending that tag to cost a character a lost action is well within the bounds of reasonability.

Data point 3: For attacks and consequential contests, invoking an aspect can be countered by a mild consequence (a severe consequence counters the effect of three invoked aspects).  So it seems fair to say that an aspect generated by a maneuver probably shouldn't be much more "severe" in nature than a mild consequence.

Note that I'm not trying to say that an invoke-for-effect or compel need be restricted to exactly two shifts of effect; I'm just trying to establish a sense of scale.  Using a maneuver to inflict Shoelaces tied together on an unsuspecting victim, then making them trip and lose their first action of an ensuing combat seems reasonable.  Inflicting Throat ripped to shreds by maneuver then invoking it to cause death by strangulation/blood loss is not reasonable.

Note also that any time an aspect is used to trigger a compel, the victim always has the option to say "Nah, I'll just buy off the compel.  Having my entrails ripped from my stomache and tied around the fire hydrant by your maneuver last exchange doesn't complicate my life".  Perhaps that should be a "data point 4"...

It might also be worth taking another look at the section on maneuvers on YS207, which says the following that is relevant to a discussion of the 'power level' of a maneuver:
* You can use maneuvers to gain momentary, situational advantages in a conflict
* It doesn’t have a lasting effect on an opponent, but it sets up a condition that will make a future attack more effective
If you are trying to do more than the above with a maneuver (like cause death), then you might want to consider a different mechanic, like an attack.

So -- using water magic to fill someone's mouth with water.  I think that any of the following would be reasonable:
* Maneuver placing "Choking on water", which could be tagged or invoked to cause the victim difficulty due to the effects of the spell.  This might include losing an action while gagging and trying to spit the water out.  Or possibly taking a two-stress hit instead.  Or just spending a fate point to avoid being inconvenienced.
* Grapple attack, which would cause extending incapacitation and a 1-stress hit per exchange until the victim manages to break the grapple or the spell wears off.
* Normal attack, inflicting damage as normal (or possibly using the special-effect attack rules on YS326 to do a mixture of damage and the above).

At least, that's how I look at it.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Putting a Sufficating aspect on someone with a evocation maneuver
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2012, 04:18:28 AM »
Is the environmental damage part of an invoke or compel?

If so, sounds good. If not, then it doesn't.

Aspects, after all, don't actually do anything unless invoked or compelled.