Author Topic: Rules for Pets and Allies  (Read 25441 times)

Offline benign

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Rules for Pets and Allies
« on: December 19, 2011, 08:28:53 PM »
This is a discussion inspired by this thread, wherein we struggled to come up with a balanced power for someone who wanted to effectively control pets in the DFRPG. Those pets might take the form of a trusted mount, like the original poster's pegasus, a close ally, actual pets, like Lea's hounds, summoned mooks, like Binder's grey men, and anything else you could think of. As Sanctaphrax put it, he'll consider it a success if the rules can cover:

A character with a pet
A character with a whole bunch of pets
A character with multiple bodies
A character that can copy itself
A character that can shapeshift into multiple bodies at once
A character with numerous minions
A character and another character statted as a single entity

So this is a thread for anyone who wants to tackle that tall order. We already have a few attempts to create powers that address this, including Revlid's multiple bodies power on the master list and my own contribution which I'll throw up below, but they've fallen short thus far. Would be glad to get a discussion going.

EDIT: This conversation has gone on for a while now, with multiple iterations on how such an ability could work. The most up-to-date take can be found here.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 04:12:17 PM by benign »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 03:20:22 AM »
Oops, missed this. Let me just quote myself from the other thread.

Quote
I think we can probably model everything that we need to model with five powers/stunt trees.

-A Survival stunt tree that gives you pets. The base stunt could give you a small dog or a bird. Upgrades could go all the way up to a pack of wolves or a lesser dragon. Or a team of Pokemon.

-A Presence/Contacts/Resources stunt tree that gives you minions. The base stunt could give you a secretary. Upgrades could go all the way to a private army or Kincaid.

-A Lore stunt tree that gives you bound spirits and other magical creatures. The base stunt could give you Toot-Toot. Upgrades could go all the way to a genie in a lamp or The Za-Lord's Guard.

-A shapeshifting power that lets you transform into multiple bodies. Depending on the variant, this could either let you clone yourself (like Naruto), let you split yourself (like Twinrova), or let you create an army of minions (like the Sliver Queen).

-A power that represents having multiple bodies normally. Could be used for a hive mind or just for two characters played by one player. The bodies may or may not be identical to one another.

Have I missed anything?

If not, there's one thing that we need to work out immediately. Should the abilities of a minion depend upon the abilities of the original character or upon the amount of refresh invested or upon both?

Offline ways and means

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 03:29:00 AM »
I would go with the abilities of minions being based only on the amount of refresh invested in them personally, though having some fraction of the main characters skills + stunts/powers to boost that higher might also work.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 03:37:58 AM »
I'd keep it simple and just re-flavor the IoP rules.  They already 1) require an appropriate aspect, 2) give a rebate for being "removable", and 3) allow you to combine a variety of stunts and powers.  That's plenty for me.  Of course I don't want to mess with the action economy or give players extra refresh* in the guise of a companion...if that's what you want you will need something home brewed.

*Beyond a small rebate to account for inherent negatives.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 03:39:30 AM by UmbraLux »
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 03:44:55 AM »
@ways and means: Any particular reason for your opinion? I'm keen to avoid having companions be godly for weak characters and useless for powerful ones.

@UmbraLux: But...items of power are nothing like allies. Having a wizard working for you is not at all like having Evocation, Thaumaturgy, and The Sight.

Offline ways and means

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2011, 04:02:26 AM »
If you want a pet to replace your roll then an IoP with custom stunt like powers works well,

for example

Kill Doll [-4]
+2 Obvious Item of Power
As a 8ft tall mentally controlled killbot is quite conspicuous
Kill Doll Great Sword Weapons 4 (This 6ft great sword is really big and attached to the dolls arm).
Mental Control: You can control your doll with your mind, roll discipline to have your doll perform any physical action,treat the dolls might as equal to the controllers discipline (+powers) this takes your go. [-2]
Supernatural Strength [-4] (only for the doll).

I probably would stat a bob like familiar for pc's as a power to replace your lore skill with either survival, resources or contacts and some lore stunts.

@ways and means: Any particular reason for your opinion? I'm keen to avoid having companions be godly for weak characters and useless for powerful ones.

I just like benefits which scale with the amount invested into a particular powers, its really just a matter of taste.







 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 04:07:47 AM by ways and means »
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Offline benign

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2011, 04:42:41 AM »
This is potentially a huge topic with a lot of room for work, but I'll start small by picking what seems to be some of the low hanging fruit.

Mortal Stunts

Call in the Cavalry: You are a member of a major organization, or have close ties to one. Because of that connection, you can rely on them to back you up when the shit really hits the fan. Once per adventure, you may call upon that group to aid you directly. That aid takes the form of one individual or several who will assist you and protect you, even to the extent of risking their lives, so long as your actions match the goals and methods of the organization to which they belong. The GM has the final say in just what form this aid will take, but it typically consists of an individual or group of individuals who would constitute "Equal Opposition" (YS 333) to your character. In most circumstances they will aid your character for one encounter before their other duties call them away or their resources are spent. In some situations the organization will be unwilling or unable to extend their aid to the PC in question; treat this as a compel against one of the character's aspects or an aspect related to the current adventure.

Trusty Ally: With this stunt you are accompanied through life's travails by a devoted ally. The relationship between the two of you might be personal, professional, mystical, or anything else, but come hell or high water, you are in it together. Choose a high concept and two aspects for your ally. Your ally has no refresh to spend on powers and stunts, but may choose one skill at the level of one below your skill cap (So if your skill cap is Great, they may choose one to have at Good). They also choose two skills at the level below that, three skills at the next level down and so on. This ally tends to be useful in one or a small group of related situations, but not in others. For example a secretary ally would be good at doing research and deflecting unwanted social attention, but would be of less use in a fight. Keep this in mind when designing your ally's skills and aspects.

Band of Brothers: Requires Trusty Ally. If two minds are better than one, why not take that to its logical conclusion? You have a knack for attracting like-minded individuals to your cause, whatever that may be. You could be the captain of your department's Special Investigations, you could be a Cult Leader, the point is that you know how to lead. The first time you purchase this stunt you may have up to three allies, constructed according to the guidelines given in the Trusty Ally stunt. If you buy this stunt again you may have a large group of such allies, easily up to a dozen.

Partner: Requires Trusty Ally. You're not interested in a sidekick so much as a partner, someone who can keep up with you when the going gets really rough. The ally you gained with the Trusty Ally stunt is granted 3 refresh to spend on stunts and powers, as appropriate to their High Concept, and 5 skill points. You may purchase this stunt again, each time granting your ally 1 more refresh and 2 skill points. The added skill points give this NPC more scope to interact with the campaign, making them useful in a broader array of situations than an unimproved ally. Your GM has the final say in determining how powerful you can make a partner before it eclipses the importance of your actual character.

I've tried to incorporate a few different ideas into getting started on the mortal end of this problem, though these stunts could also be used to make familiars and other things. One thing that is very important is that not every NPC that is important to your character has to be modeled using these rules, in fact the VAST majority of the time you should skip it and just throw in an aspect on your sheet that mentions them. These abilities are specifically for NPCs that you want to be able to control in-game, and thus that you foresee playing an important role in almost every adventure you participate in.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 04:44:49 AM by benign »

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2011, 04:54:47 AM »
White Wolf (old world of darkness) provided a system of "backgrounds"  These backgrounds were scaled (in general) from 1 to 5.  1 being weakest 5 being multiple weaker bonuses or a single large bonus.

They had one called Allies -

1- a weak ally
2- 2 weak allies or one competent ally
3 - 3 weak allies, or one weak ally and one competent ally, or one skilled ally (on par with the player)
4 - 4 weak allies, or one weak ally and one skilled ally, or two competent allies, or one poweful ally (stronger than the player)
5 - 5 weak allies, or any other combination of above (tired of typing...) or one very powerful ally (an ally of significant power)

These NPC's were required to be trated well, and had full character sheets of their own, they were generally under control of the Storyteller/GM

Keep in mind this system is far more like a bunch of teamwork rather than just players and GM.  Therefore this won't really work as is.  Also, free points to spend on backgrounds isn;t somthing this system has (nor would it be balanced) I just figured mentioning it may help spark ideas - on how to work this out.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2011, 05:06:08 AM »
Call In The Cavalry is too vague to be a stunt. Just Invoke and aspect for effect.

The others are decent, but I really think you're jumping the gun here. Before we get to the actual creation of powers, we should decide which principles we are going to be using here.

It seems that you support allies that scale with the power of the person who takes them. Any special reason why?

Also: what level of control do you have over your allies?

The answer to this question is very important, since it determines how strong these powers and stunts are.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 05:21:09 AM »
@UmbraLux: But...items of power are nothing like allies.
From my PoV, there's no functional difference between a magic broom with the Wings power and a flying horse.  Both grant the character flight in forms which may be temporarily taken away or lost.

As I mentioned in the previous post, I specifically don't want to screw with the action economy or give extra refresh that isn't balanced by a disadvantage.  So the IoP rules work just fine.

Quote
Having a wizard working for you is not at all like having Evocation, Thaumaturgy, and The Sight.
Perhaps not...but it's not all that different from having a magic eight ball called Bob which sees the supernatural and casts spells for you...when it's willing to do so.   ;)
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Offline benign

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 05:30:50 AM »
I thought that by throwing down something specific we could like or dislike, and pick apart, we'd be moving forward. It's how I work best. But I can take a step back for a bit more planning.

I included a minor bit of scaling because otherwise such characters wouldn't be worth it at higher refresh levels. Note that while skills scale with level, the amount of refresh does not, so I took a hybrid approach. The more you put in the more you get out, but the baseline stunt should be useful at all levels of refresh.

As for control, I think that pets granted through the abilities generated on this list should be controlled by the player. Otherwise why bother making them powers? Just deal with it like you would any NPC, with aspects on your character sheet and fate points for declarations to get them moving the way you want them to go. But if you want to be able to control them directly, this list of powers/stunts is where you go.

As far as deciding which principles we will use going forward, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, stunts seem to be a pretty good way to do pets, minions, and allies. On the other hand I would like whatever framework we have for such things to be flexible to allow both a pure mortal to purchase a secretary and to allow a 22 refresh wizard to purchase a familiar. And I know that a lot of people are uncomfortable with mortal stunts allowing things that are supernatural in nature.

So I'm open to other opinions, but my instinct is to go with mortal stunts that can be reflavored to grant mystically inclined pets.

Offline EldritchFire

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2011, 03:35:19 PM »
Has anyone looked at Bulldogs!? There's a nice "tree" of stunts for companions/minions. Basically, a companion is one "character," while minions are a group of characters.

The base companion [-1] gives you a +1 to appropriate rolls (+1 to attacks for a sidekick) and an additional mild consequence of the appropriate type (sidekick down, or somesuch). For more stunts, you can give them skills, broaden their horizons (physical & social conflicts), or even give it the ability to act without you there.

For minions, it's kind of the same thing, but instead of skills, you get MOAR minions. It's a bit rough around the edges, but can totally be ported to DFRPG.

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Offline Praxidicae

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2011, 05:23:36 PM »
Has anyone looked at Bulldogs!?
Personally I quite like the companion gift (read stunt) from Kerberos Club url=arcdream.com/home/?p=897/]Here[/url], it allows a pretty decent level of customisation for the companion, though as it is set up for the 'Strange Fate' system used in that game it might take some customisation for use in DFRPG.

Below is an abbreviated synopsis of the stunt. I've removed the details of some of the improvements that are 'Strange Fate' specific.

Quote
Companion:

The character has a “helper” character.
The Companion defaults to Average (+1) quality, with one Average (+1) skill, 2 stress boxes in each stress track, and one Trifling consequence. A Companion requires the expenditure
of a Fate Point to act alone. Otherwise, he or she attaches to the character as a Minion would, and provides the character with a +1 bonus to any skill the two share in common.
In addition, each Companion automatically comes with three improvements, chosen from the list below. Unless otherwise indicated, an improvement can be taken more than once for the same Companion. Every time this Stunt is taken, it can be used to either create a new Companion or provide another three improvements to an existing Companion.

Improvements:

- Aspect: The Companion gains an aspect (but no Fate Points).

- Quality: Increase the Companion’s quality by +1, to a maximum of Good (+3).
            A Fair (+2) Companion has one Average (+1) skill,
            one Fair (+2) skill, 3 boxes in one stress track and 2
            boxes in the other two.

            A Good (+3) Companion has one Average (+1) skill,
            one Fair (+2) skill, one Good (+3) skill, and 3 boxes
            in each stress track.
 
- Communication: The character and the Companion have a special mode of communication in keeping with their capabilities. This could be a mental link, a high-tech satellite communications system or whatever else is thematically relevant. Attempts to break this communication link between the two are made against a difficulty of 2 + the Companion’s
quality.

- Independent: The Companion can act on their own without needing to spend a Fate Point, unless the Companion’s sent off on a mission of significant story importance (comparable with something a PC might do, for example). While the Companion is so separated, they have access to the main character’s Fate Points and two of their aspects relevant to their bond.

- Keeping up: If the main character has some unusual form of locomotion, the Companion can somehow follow along without getting left behind.

- Skilled: The Companion gains 3 skill points. None of a Companion’s skill ratings can exceed his or her quality.

- Gifted: The Companion gains one of the following [Stunts]: Equipment, Impact, or Theme. This improvement can’t be taken more than twice per Companion.

            Impact: is attached to a specific skill (ie. Impact [Fists] and when used allows the
            delaration of a fragile aspect on either yourself, your opponent or the scene (as
            appropriate) as a free action.

            Theme: gives acts pretty much like the standard DFRPG stunt for a specific grouping
            of three thematically linked skills i.e:
            - +1 to a narrow circumstance (eg. +1 to Fists when outnumbered, +1 to athletics
            when evading capture).
            - +2 bonus when the skill is used to manouver or block
            - use the skill in place of another skill under specific circumstances
 
- Empowered: Upgrade the Power Tier of one of the Companion’s skills.
The Companion receives Tier Benefits from this skill the same way characters do. Empowered costs two improvement slots.
"Power Tiers" are a strange fate specific rule designed to allow superhumans of various "power levels" to compete and still allow a possibility that the less powerful combatant could bring down the greater (i.e. a Captain America vs Hulk type scenario). From a mechanical standpoint it involves the more powerful character replacing a DF with a D6 for each tier of difference between the two skills being used.

- Numerous: Each time this improvement is taken, the main character gains
one additional Companion. (This does not grant additional improvement slots).

- Summonable: The Companion can show up at the main character’s beck and call without needing to resort to conventional means. This takes One Minute by default; for a Fate Point, the Companion arrives instantly. The Companion automatically vanishes at the end of the scene.

Offline Becq

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2011, 06:15:59 PM »
Spirit of the Century also has Fate-based rules for companions, followers, minions, pets, etc.  Off-hand, I would say they are probably similar to the ones from Kerberos Club that Praxidicae quoted, but I haven't studied up on them recently.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Rules for Pets and Allies
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2011, 03:20:12 AM »
@UmbraLux:

A magic 8-ball and a horse could indeed be represented as IoPs. But a wizard couldn't be. The main point of an ally/pet is to have a separate character helping you. If you turn them into an item you lose that.

Nobody denies that NPCs can help players do things. I think that most would agree that an Invoke For Effect could get an NPC to help you do something. And stunts are a little bit like perma-invoked aspects. (A little bit. Do not over-analyse this analogy.) I don't know if this is relevant, but it popped into my head and I felt like sharing it.

@benign:

I agree that we should use stunts for pets and allies. Having a magic thing working for you does not require you to be magical. We can use Powers for the multiple bodies thing.

If we're going to have stunt-granted allies scale with their boss, then I suggest we use the skill that the stunt is connected to as the scaling factor.

I actually think that control over stunt-granted allies should be limited. You can order them around and they will obey (barring compels) but they are still NPCs and you can't micromanage their actions. This is intended to fix the problems that UmbraLux raises. Fighting alongside an ally does not give you two actions per round or use of that ally's powers. It gives you the help of another character.

@EldritchFire:

Thanks for that. That looks like an interesting method for handling allies, but I don't expect to use it here. I'm aiming at something less abstract in this thread.

Still, expect something based off of that on the Homebrew Stunts thread one of these days.

@Praxidicae:

Thanks and welcome to the forums.

Does raising a skill by a tier do anything beyond converting a DF to a D6?