McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Author Craft

Test Readers - Limits

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MClark:

--- Quote from: Shecky on December 07, 2011, 11:36:12 AM ---I figured that part. What I didn't get is how it became an issue in the first place; correct usage and awareness of the reader solves any potential problem with adverbs.

--- End quote ---

Yes I did see the adverb discussion.

Sometimes I just get in a rush to get the words in and one of those -ly buggers slips in, so I included it as something for test readers to highlight.

meg_evonne:

--- Quote from: MClark on December 07, 2011, 03:54:53 PM ---Yes I did see the adverb discussion. Sometimes I just get in a rush to get the words in and one of those -ly buggers slips in, so I included it as something for test readers to highlight.
--- End quote ---

I took your adverb comment to mean an editor who highlighted adverb series. I think they are frowned upon, but can really be fun to write. So if someone highlighted a series, I'd take that to mean they didn't think it was as funny as I did.

As to your initial question, I know that I can easily cross the line and have to force myself to abstain based on the writer's experience level. This is hard to do in an online class; far easier when I have the chance to edit my responses judiciously the next day or sometimes more days before forwarding them off.

See, here is the problem with deep, gut wrenching painful edits in full brutality---you can learn a hell of a lot faster with the knife. Yet, the knife can literally kill and hurt someone that you really know can be a terrific writer. The knife too soon, and for you personally from the sounds of it,  can blunt the creative urge, and even cut it out. Too often college professors, who are frustrated writers, can famously fall into this category. The same type of prof can edit an author's voice into their own assumption of how it should be--to the true detriment of the author!

If however you can take it for what was graciously given---a huge amount of your test reader's time and talent, then you will value it, even if turns out to be a bunch of crap in your opinion right now.

I know of at least one published author who was asked, "Why did this edit finally do the trick to get an agent?"

The answer was a heartfelt humility. "When absolutely no agent would look at it for over a year, I went back to those people who read and edited my work and took the time to crit it and then re-read them. This time, I listened and I changed--not only how I edited the manuscript, but how I wrote so I didn't repeat the same mistakes."  I would surmise that if that same author continues to follow what was learned through those knife cuts, they will have several more books published. If they don't, and they fall back on what they were doing earlier, they will ultimately fail.

One more thing for you to consider when you ask test readers to crit, give them an idea of what you want and your level before they agree to read your work. If you are a beginning writer, then tell them and don't be disappointed when they turn you down for now. See, I have these alien freaky times when I simply want to edit the crap out of stuff. They are gifts for heaven for my own work, but far more difficult for other writers to accept. Also, I have limited time, and if you really want me to crit/edit your work and take the time to do so, then don't send me more of the same level of work the next time. It shows me that you didn't learn from it, you didn't listen, or you didn't care about my opinion. My time is valuable and if you love what I edit and you keep sending me more of the same to do the same? Then it's time you paid me for my work.

EVEN In that case, if I loved your work, I would continue to do it--but I'd have to really love it to drag me away from my own writing and editing. :-)

This explanation is like the chemistry teacher who sat down on his kid's bed thrilled to discuss the full facts about the Elements, but after an hour of boring the kid, he says, "But what does that have to do with Elephants?" So if I've bored you.... try reading it again in a couple years.  :-)

Hugs and enjoy your writing!

Starbeam:

--- Quote from: MClark on December 07, 2011, 03:12:53 AM ---Hi,

I understand that test readers are supposed to do things such as mark up where when the action is confusing, highlight the adverbs, make a notation "pass." (or some such) for passive voice, or say a character or scene is extraneous and could be cut.

If they start re-writing phrases and sentences (sometimes making them flow better) does that make them co-authors, or is it just accepted that test readers get excited and stick their oar in the water occasionally? 


--- End quote ---
For the most part, this all tends to be my copyedit stuff.  Some, like confusing action, extraneous characters/scenes, characters acting out of character-that would be more story editing.  But if someone's rewriting what you wrote-they're doing it wrong.  There's a book by Piers Anthony, But What of Earth, where you can see what bad copyeditors/editors can do to a book--the annotated version tells what was changed.  *must remember to get a copy of that for myself*  Plus, you'll find different people give critiques different ways, and you just have to find someone who's a match to you.  Myself, I generally tend more toward almost nitpicky stuff, pointing out awkward sentences, unclear details, and small inconsistencies.  Ask Kali-I gave her something of a crit a couple months ago. (must remember to finish that)

As for doing all this--I would suggest not sending to readers until you've got a pretty solid story. Otherwise you might end up listening too much and turning the story into something that's not what you want.  Though you want to have built up a thick enough skin that seemingly-harsh critiques don't get to you. 

Hopefully, this will make sense. Posting at lunch doesn't always.

Shecky:

--- Quote from: Starbeam on December 07, 2011, 06:58:58 PM ---For the most part, this all tends to be my copyedit stuff.  Some, like confusing action, extraneous characters/scenes, characters acting out of character-that would be more story editing.  But if someone's rewriting what you wrote-they're doing it wrong.  There's a book by Piers Anthony, But What of Earth, where you can see what bad copyeditors/editors can do to a book--the annotated version tells what was changed.  *must remember to get a copy of that for myself*  Plus, you'll find different people give critiques different ways, and you just have to find someone who's a match to you.  Myself, I generally tend more toward almost nitpicky stuff, pointing out awkward sentences, unclear details, and small inconsistencies.  Ask Kali-I gave her something of a crit a couple months ago. (must remember to finish that)

As for doing all this--I would suggest not sending to readers until you've got a pretty solid story. Otherwise you might end up listening too much and turning the story into something that's not what you want.  Though you want to have built up a thick enough skin that seemingly-harsh critiques don't get to you. 

Hopefully, this will make sense. Posting at lunch doesn't always.

--- End quote ---

All I know for sure about this is my experience with Jim. His stable of beta readers is... eclectic, to say the least. Everyone has a unique perspective and a particular skillset that they bring to the table. Does Jim incorporate every reaction/suggestion? HELL no. That would bastardize the snot out of his work. But I've seen the man take all sorts of commentary into account, and he often uses that commentary to modify his own work.

That's the key to writer/beta relationships: you don't have to accede to each and every thought or suggestion, but it's a certainty that at least some of them are going to be dead on the money, so they're absolutely worth taking a good look. And since the writer's the one in charge of the gestalt, he's the one who decides what to use and HOW to use it; sometimes, a comment's usefulness is in how it makes you rethink what you did but decide to stand behind it - i.e., it makes you clearer on exactly WHY you did what you did. Jim's a freaking master at orchestrating the whole thing in this regard.

Moral of the story: don't pigeonhole or muzzle your test/beta readers, but don't act like their every comment is a dictum from On High. It's a balancing act.

LizW65:
My understanding of beta readers is that they are there to point out factual or continuity errors, plot holes you can drive a truck through, and inconsistencies of character/tone.  They are not supposed to correct grammar and spelling or change characters' names and plot points they dislike.  (If I'm wrong here, please correct me; that's all I had the beta readers on my first completed novel do, and I found attempts to do anything else fairly annoying.)

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