McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Author Craft
Test Readers - Limits
Starbeam:
--- Quote from: Shecky on December 07, 2011, 07:56:37 PM ---All I know for sure about this is my experience with Jim. His stable of beta readers is... eclectic, to say the least. Everyone has a unique perspective and a particular skillset that they bring to the table. Does Jim incorporate every reaction/suggestion? HELL no. That would bastardize the snot out of his work. But I've seen the man take all sorts of commentary into account, and he often uses that commentary to modify his own work.
That's the key to writer/beta relationships: you don't have to accede to each and every thought or suggestion, but it's a certainty that at least some of them are going to be dead on the money, so they're absolutely worth taking a good look. And since the writer's the one in charge of the gestalt, he's the one who decides what to use and HOW to use it; sometimes, a comment's usefulness is in how it makes you rethink what you did but decide to stand behind it - i.e., it makes you clearer on exactly WHY you did what you did. Jim's a freaking master at orchestrating the whole thing in this regard.
Moral of the story: don't pigeonhole or muzzle your test/beta readers, but don't act like their every comment is a dictum from On High. It's a balancing act.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, that's essentially what I'd meant with my suggestion on not going to a writing group/beta readers too early. Both story wise and as a writer--you don't want to end up taking what people comment as set in stone. Although a couple of the stories I'd heard of people doing that were that they were in groups with published authors and took to heart instead of listened and decided what worked best. Also why I suggest waiting til the story is pretty well formed--that way you're able to flesh it out and get it to the point you want, without people making suggestions of what to do before you even have any idea of your own. That's pretty much why the only part of my WiP that people end up seeing is the first chapter--it's the only really concrete part of the story, so far. Though with my luck, that'll be what I have people suggesting I cut.
Shecky:
--- Quote from: LizW65 on December 07, 2011, 09:06:32 PM ---My understanding of beta readers is that they are there to point out factual or continuity errors, plot holes you can drive a truck through, and inconsistencies of character/tone. They are not supposed to correct grammar and spelling or change characters' names and plot points they dislike. (If I'm wrong here, please correct me; that's all I had the beta readers on my first completed novel do, and I found attempts to do anything else fairly annoying.)
--- End quote ---
There are no rules concerning the writer/beta relationship. In Jim's case, nobody's actually changing anything; they're simply making suggestions. With my grammarnaziism, I point out misspellings, grammar faux pas, reference issues, etc. - the purely mechanical stuff - all the time. But Jim primarily asks us 3 things:
1) What did you like and why? He wants specifics.
2) What did you dislike and why? Same as above.
3) Any other comments or concerns.
For Jim, that approach seems to work pretty well - he's apparently comfortable with it and has made use of a lot of suggestions. Sometimes, he responds with "No, and here's why I did it this way," followed by an in-depth explanation of all the whys and wherefores of the particular point. All of which helps US help HIM on later chapters - we get a better idea of where he's going with things, either specific or general, so we can better frame our responses within that context.
... okay, you'll see Jim's LJ comment soon enough, so here goes: one of the things he's been doing since GS was completed is "auditioning" new worlds. He's written a number of chapters each in a Black Company-inspired world (BC being perhaps the seminal work in military fantasy - at least, in medievalesque military fantasy) and in a steampunk world. Now, I am not a big fan of steampunk. I've never been OPPOSED to it, mind you, just not a huge fanboi of it. But this one is pushing buttons I didn't even know I had. A number of us have been practically squeeing over aspects we're really enjoying, and either we've gotten to know his writing so well that we automatically expect how some things will play out OR he's incorporating our squeeifying into his writing.
All of that is only to say that the writer/beta relationship is a very individual thing. But, in my experience with Jim, I tend to believe that if a writer is truly open to suggestions and comments as Jim is, his writing can become just that little bit better... which is the whole point of having readers.
MClark:
Whoa nelly, lots of replies. I don't think I can sort thru them all specifically.
I think of beta reader is there to test such things as plot, characters, continuity, and action scenes, grammar. Which pretty much agrees with most of the comments here. As a writer gains in skill, they should be able to fix most things on the first draft or maybe even the zero'th draft. Grammar issues should drive towards zero, but another set of eyes always helps.
Thanks for all the replies.
The Deposed King:
--- Quote from: MClark on December 11, 2011, 09:03:10 PM ---Whoa nelly, lots of replies. I don't think I can sort thru them all specifically.
I think of beta reader is there to test such things as plot, characters, continuity, and action scenes, grammar. Which pretty much agrees with most of the comments here. As a writer gains in skill, they should be able to fix most things on the first draft or maybe even the zero'th draft. Grammar issues should drive towards zero, but another set of eyes always helps.
Thanks for all the replies.
--- End quote ---
You know if you go to Baen's Bar you can get test readers that post pretty much whatever hits them. And its a varied bunch. If they like or hate you you'll get a comment. ITs might be utter drek that does nothing but drag you down. It might be the most wonderful piece of helpful advice you've ever seen.
That's what i'd call the open form.
then there is a more closed circut. Its where you take people you select. You family, brother/sister, friend or what have your. Or like with shecky. You invite people you know a little bit about online and you have a select group. It can be anywhere from 1+. And they really help you.
Back in 04-06 I had the best test reader I've ever met. I lost her e-mail and haven't seen her on the Bar since. But I've got to say I wish I still had her number. I would beg her on bended knee, to help me finish my Military Insect Story she was so helpful. Sometimes when you're just starting you don't realize what you had until its gone. I knew she was awesome but now looking back I am appreciating her even more.
Alas work, family and general discouragement slowed me to a stop.
I'm back on the saddle as of now. And hope to bang out book two in my Spine-Ward Sector's series. Or whatever the end name turns out to be. I had last month and I hope to have this month just for writing. I might need to get a new job which would cut in to my free time but as of right now I'm in the saddle.
I'm trying to give what advice I can on my blog, where you can follow me as I first write my books and then later chronicle my process of going through amazon: http://aspiringauthor1.blogspot.com/
The Deposed King
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