Evocation vs Mental/Social Track

[Lafcadio]

Can evocation be used to damage either the mental or social tracks or is it limited to physical track?

Sorry, sure it has been asked before but I did not find it in a search.

Thanks!

[spac3_pop3]

Evocation can definitely be used to harm a character's Mental Stress, although for mortal casters this is breaking one of the Laws of Magic.  As for Social Stress, I haven't found any mention of it, but the first thing one does when deciding to cast an evocation is to describe the effect desired and okay it with the GM, then proceeding to the rolls as per normal.  So I don't see why not.

[Sanctaphrax]

This is an unresolved debate.

I'm pretty firmly on the "no" side.

Because allowing social and mental evocations basically ensures that an evoker can take anyone out in one hit.

I'm not kidding here. A semi-optimized Feet In The Water character can (with average rolls) force mental consequences onto anything in OW with one evocation. I'm pretty sure that the same is true for social stress.

In other words, wizards who can perform mental and social attack evocations will almost never lose either fights or arguments.

[ways and means]

I personally let wizards cast mental attacks using spirit evocation (see side bar on spirit) my reasoning being when you read the mental combat guide it mentions wizards being able to deal mental harm without knowing people and because of the many examples in the novel (mainly crazy mind-controlling Chinese warlock, Molly, and speed wizard from Ghost Stories) of people using mind magic without thaumaturgy or sponsored magic.   

That being said it is powerful (unless you allow mental toughness powers), I wouldn't support magic social stress really would imagine that most of the uses magic has in social combat would be in the mental department anyway (mind wipes, forced emotions, memory hack etc). 

[sinker]

I believe the RAW is intentionally ambiguous on this one. Sanctaphrax brings up a lot of good points for why not to do it, however I think that there are some times when it's appropriate. Personally I would not allow it at all times and in all situations.

Mental stress I reserve primarily for the bad guys. It takes a lot of practice to be able to do that quickly and effectively (I.E. with evocation's speed and methods). Most good guys are not going to sit and break one mind after the next just so that they can do it flawlessly later. Otherwise I'd allow it as a ritual, or if the caster's intent is to harm the target (plenty easy to tear someone's mind up, much harder to only damage specific bits in specific ways). And of course its usually lawbreaking.

Social stress depends entirely on the situation. I could very rarely justify a social evocation attack, but most of the time the environment is just not right for it. You have to consider how you are damaging their reputation or resolve.

Of course all of this is going to vary on the GM. If you're the player then you should be asking your GM. If you're a GM then weigh the benefits and the downsides. Sanctaphrax is right about it changing the game pretty severely, however I don't think it changes the game beyond repair.

[TheBiggs]

Agree with most of the above posters. Mental stress is a-ok, but you're breaking the Laws. Social stress is a big no.

[Sanctaphrax]

I want to avoid having this argument, so I'm going to try to give a fair point-by-point summary.

1. The rules are ambiguous.

2. The novels indicate that mental attacks are possible with evocation. This causes some people to allow them.

3. Allowing mental attacks makes spellcasting considerably more powerful. This causes some people to disallow them.

4. Allowing mental attacks makes it harder to make a tough character, even with mental Toughness powers. (After all, it's harder to defend multiple stress tracks.) This causes some people to disallow them.

5. There are a number of story and character concepts that are not possible without mental attack evocations. This causes some people to allow them.

6. Mental attacks break the Fourth Law if your target is human, but not if they aren't.

In my opinion, points #3+4 trump points #2+5. But I can understand why someone would think otherwise.

The difference probably comes down to how much you care about mechanics as opposed to story. I think that the game is more mechanically sound without mental attack evocations, but it works better as a story with them.

So, what's more important?

[The Mighty Buzzard]

With very few exceptions, I'd say damaging the social track is impossible with evocation.  Spirit specifically allows for mental attacks but social dynamics are far too complex for evocation to have any part in them.

Now for an exception.  I'm pretty sure you could pull off a whoopee cushion effect with evocation and that could be used as a low-brow social attack.  You could also use a focused wind gust to scatter someone's notes during a speech which could be adjudicated as a social attack.  In either case though, they'd really work better as maneuvers; the caster's Discipline roll would have little to nothing to do with how much disadvantage the recipient took off of the spell.

[SunlessNick]

You could probably use it for intimidation too.  But its magical niche is quick, dirty, wildly forceful and unsubtle - that should be its limit in any other sphere - if you try to use it socially, you're essentially doing this.

[zenten]

Do the novels ever have someone doing mental attacks in combat?  If not I'd break with the rules slightly and allow mental attacks from Evocation during say a social duel or whatnot, but not during an actual physical fight, because the physical fight is both happening too quickly and takes away your concentration.

[ways and means]

Well Corpse Taker does it and I think Molly does it. 

[Blackblade]

In Dead Beat, Corpsetaker starts mind raping Harry while he's running from the ninja ghoul. 

[ARedthorn]

I largely agree with Sancta... rules-wise, decidedly possible. Sane-GM-wise... very unwise to allow it at the table. At very minimum, it
a) storywise leads down a very dark path.
b) mechanically can imbalance the game very severely.
Now, a) might appeal to you for a single given story, flirting with darkness (and I get that- go for it), in which case I'd honestly hand-wave it... but by the time you're doing it often enough to need a set mechanic for it.... dark doesn't really even begin to cover it.

4. Allowing mental attacks makes it harder to make a tough character, even with mental Toughness powers. (After all, it's harder to defend multiple stress tracks.) This causes some people to disallow them.

Side-note Sancta... in the hands of a NPC, such powers are exclusively at GM discretion, and he's either a good GM (who you can trust is interested in telling a good story, not destroying the party), or a bad GM (who will find a way to destroy the party even without), and either way it doesn't matter.
In the hands of a player, vs other players, you have a fantastic point.
And in the hands of a player vs NPCs, again, the GM has options. It's fair to say that against humans, it works GREAT... but violates the 4th law, quickly making the character hard to play.
And against non-humans, it's easy to justify some innate heavy psychic armor (if they're below 1 refresh, that represents being chained to their nature to a truly alien extent. Bending a fixed point is at minimum hard-as-hell, and the more fixed, the harder)... easy rule of thumb... give anything with a 0 Refresh Conviction/Mental Defense of 5... and armor equivalent to their negative refresh... and bam. No more Jedi Mind Tricks on Faeries (at least... not the ones you couldn't have just bribed or talked into it without any mojo).

I still agree with you- but I think this particular point is easily made moot.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

I don't have any problem with mental attacks at all.  Every vamp has some form of one and anyone who can use Spirit evocations can whip them out at a moment's notice, barring aspects to the contrary.  Wardens getting rather choppy over this and having to take Lawbreaker is plenty of deterrent IMO.  If they want to pick up the red lightsaber of Lawbreaker and deal with any consequences arising, more power to them.  It's no darker than the WCV in my group torturing captured baddies for information last week.

I do dig the "X negagive refresh =  X mental armor" though.  Gives me a mechanic for saying non-mortal creatures are difficult to bother mentally rather than just being arbitrary about it.  Think I'll skip bothering with taking Conviction/Discipline into account;  no need for weak fae to be any less alien mentally than the stronger ones.

[zenten]

I do dig the "X negagive refresh =  X mental armor" though.  Gives me a mechanic for saying non-mortal creatures are difficult to bother mentally rather than just being arbitrary about it.  Think I'll skip bothering with taking Conviction/Discipline into account;  no need for weak fae to be any less alien mentally than the stronger ones.

Just do it as a Block.