Author Topic: Orbius hurts my head  (Read 6259 times)

Offline Arcane257

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Orbius hurts my head
« on: October 21, 2011, 01:28:50 AM »
Has anyone done a house-ruled version of this that doesn't feel so over powered? I had thought to maybe just make the caster ether spend a fate point when they cast it to get a free tag so to speak or have it require a tagging action before use so the invoke of a grapple effect felt more in line with the rules. Still feels off to me though so I figured I would ask. I like the idea of spells being able to do grapple like effects I just would like to find a way for them to do so that is more in line with the rest of system.

Or if you think I am totally off can you explain to me what I am missing about the spell? It just seems like a huge amount of bang for your buck, and if it were that easy why isn't every bad guy who could care less about the first law tossing such spells around?

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2011, 02:48:44 AM »
Shrug.  The only part of the grapple rules I give it are the damage over time and breaking free of it aspects.  If the description says it constricts the windpipe, I'm not going to read that as all actions besides removing it are blocked.  If someone wants to draw one up that blocks all physical actions, that's their prerogative, but Orbius doesn't either by the description or by canon.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 04:22:29 AM »
If it works the way a grapple does, it's clearly overpowered. Just as you say.

(See computerking's signature for my opinion on Orbius.)

The Mighty Buzzard's interpretation* makes it less bad, but it also loses most of what you want it to do.

As a stopgap, I suggest either requiring an invocation or charging two shifts of power for each shift of grapple. Neither is a real solution, but both ought to help.

*Which may or may not be correct, depending on how one reads the spell description.

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 06:56:55 AM »
How about some dueling examples here between an 8 shift straight damage vs Orbius.  Assume the same caster rolls an 8 on their Control roll and the defender rolls a 2 on their Defense roll so the spell sticks just for the sake of argument.  Caster has initiative.  Assume a worst possible case for interpretation of the spell and grapples.  Anything beyond this is not being done by the RAW.

Fuego = weapon 8 + 8 control - 5 defense = 11 stress

Orbius = 3 strength 5 duration (8 control 5 defense do nothing except establish success)
best case = 5 stress
initial exchange 0
2nd exchange 1
3rd exchange 1
4th exchange 1
5th exchange 1
6th exchange 1

worst case = 0 stress
initial exchange 0
defender laughs at only having to beat a strength of three and pulls off a four shift anything to remove the grapple. (evocation, might, or lore would probably be best but I could see fists or weapons with a good explanation)

Essentially, magical grapples are only good for mooks or for reliably tying an equal up for one exchange.  Anyone on your level or stronger will almost certainly be able to remove them before they do any damage.  You'd be better off with straight damage or a 7/2 offensive block.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 07:16:33 AM »
Not so.

Casting Orbius with a long duration is a dumb move in a duel. Optimal play is to crank power as high as possible, then cast another spell to extend it.

Also, 5x1 stress=!=5 stress.

Anyway, the real problem is the block. The damage is just insult added to injury.

An 8 shift damage spell launched at a guy with Supernatural Toughness and a Fair defense roll inflicts a moderate consequence. An 8 shift Orbius launched at the same guy is utter doom unless he can get an 8-shift result to oppose it. Which some characters are just not likely to manage, ever.

Making this worse is the fact that one can boost spell power very easily. This is limited in usefulness with attacks that need to be aimed, but blocks don't need to be aimed so...

Sacrificing a pair of mild consequences can get you up to a 13-shift Orbius. Which is basically game over. A similar Feugo wouldn't be so bad, because it would still only be control 8 and therefore soakable with a severe and a moderate by our Supernaturally Tough example guy.

Offline ways and means

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2011, 07:23:41 AM »
I have to admit I like the fact it is an offensive spirit block (could there be a better sort of block focus wise) but other than one on one combat (which in game turns shouldn't come up that often) it isn't that good.
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Offline KOFFEYKID

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2011, 07:28:58 AM »
The real problem with spells like orbius aren't damage. Damage is trivial to the economy of action. The exchange rate can be very one sided, spending one or two actions to put somebody out of the fight for five or six actions is very powerful.

Another thing to consider is what happens when somebody attacks another person in a grapple. It can get very nasty depending on how you rule it. The most strait forward interpretation is that the target has to roll defense versus the strength of the grapple, if they cannot beat it then they dont get to roll defense, with massive stress incoming.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 07:32:55 AM »
The usefulness of Orbius is not limited to 1v1. It's even better when you're ganging up on the guy you use it on.

And if you have multiple targets, you can make it zone-wide.

Basically, Orbius says this:

"If you cannot roll more shifts than I can cast, you die."

And that's bad. Normal attack spells don't do that for a reason.

Offline Watson

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 10:58:31 AM »
Another thing to consider is what happens when somebody attacks another person in a grapple. It can get very nasty depending on how you rule it. The most strait forward interpretation is that the target has to roll defense versus the strength of the grapple, if they cannot beat it then they dont get to roll defense, with massive stress incoming.

The rules say that a Block can't prevent someone from making a defense roll.

Quote from: YS210
You can’t use a block to prevent someone from making a defense roll.

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 05:35:14 PM »
Not so.

Casting Orbius with a long duration is a dumb move in a duel. Optimal play is to crank power as high as possible, then cast another spell to extend it.

Also, 5x1 stress=!=5 stress.

True enough but that takes two standard actions and can still be broken the first for no damage exchange by anyone relatively even with you power-wise.  I assume anyone thinking of taking on a spellchucker has at least one method of dishing out comparable ass-kickery, even if it is narrowly defined by stunts.

Anyway, the real problem is the block. The damage is just insult added to injury.

An 8 shift damage spell launched at a guy with Supernatural Toughness and a Fair defense roll inflicts a moderate consequence. An 8 shift Orbius launched at the same guy is utter doom unless he can get an 8-shift result to oppose it. Which some characters are just not likely to manage, ever.

Granted, the ability to ignore armor is pretty over the top but it does make sense for this particular spell since it's causing stress via suffocation rather than direct, physical means.  I don't see any need to grant it for similar spells unless they can justify it equally well though.

Making this worse is the fact that one can boost spell power very easily. This is limited in usefulness with attacks that need to be aimed, but blocks don't need to be aimed so...

Sacrificing a pair of mild consequences can get you up to a 13-shift Orbius. Which is basically game over. A similar Feugo wouldn't be so bad, because it would still only be control 8 and therefore soakable with a severe and a moderate by our Supernaturally Tough example guy.

Assume that was a typo and you meant 12, 8+2+2 and all.  You may not need to aim it but you still have to control 12 shifts or take those over 8 as backlash/fallout.  That makes it a pair of milds and a moderate, or four milds, to make sure all 12 shifts are backing the spell when it reaches the target.

On a Fuego that would bump the weapon rating to 12 and control roll to 12 also, minus five for defense, leaving our tough guy having to soak 19 stress.  And since we're giving the Orbius guy two exchanges to get the spell fully set, we have to give the Fuego guy another.  Assume he doesn't want to supercharge the second and goes for the 11 stress version in the original example.  That's 30 (26 after the -4 for armor) stress over two exchanges or the 5th and 7th stress boxes filled plus an extreme, mild, and moderate consequence (not assuming he bought extra consequences from stunts or recovery because that would just draw things out without really changing anything).

Boiling it down to worst possible case/readings, a 12/8 Orbius does five stress boxes plus a mild, moderate, and severe and takes the subject out of the fight for 8 exchanges.  A 12 Fuego plus an 8 Fuego cost the same and do two (5th/7th) stress boxes plus a mild, moderate, and extreme consequence.  Over two exchanges, Fuego is far more deadly but you have to deal with attacks in return.  Over three, Fuego is likely fatal, assuming you can avoid being pulped in return.

Read Orbius as it's described, blocking no actions but breathing, and you're going to witness a spectacular kicking of your ass using it in a fight because you basically wasted two exchanges, two spells, and a few consequence slots.  The other guy may end up going down too but not until long after he's taken you out by just ignoring the spell until you're dealt with.
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Offline Arcane257

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 06:13:40 PM »
Oh I guess I read the spell differently than everyone else to me it reads to be a block that is resisted by endurance and only endurance. That is why it hurt my head so much. I mean reading YS 294-295 it really does read as a grapple that can only be resisted by endurance. Add in the suggestion to have a variant which does the same thing except is opposed solely by might and yeah I think you get why I found it so frustrating. If its a normal block that you can beat with anything great, you still need to choose an action that would reasonably break the "grapple" YS 211 to have your action release you from the spell but yeah no where near as bad as your grappled and endurance is your only way out.

Still though I have to say that the way the spell is written it feels like they intended it as a grapple resisted only with endurance as long as you need to breath.


Thanks for the other takes on it guys
 

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 06:25:44 PM »
Oh I guess I read the spell differently than everyone else to me it reads to be a block that is resisted by endurance and only endurance. That is why it hurt my head so much. I mean reading YS 294-295 it really does read as a grapple that can only be resisted by endurance. Add in the suggestion to have a variant which does the same thing except is opposed solely by might and yeah I think you get why I found it so frustrating. If its a normal block that you can beat with anything great, you still need to choose an action that would reasonably break the "grapple" YS 211 to have your action release you from the spell but yeah no where near as bad as your grappled and endurance is your only way out.

Still though I have to say that the way the spell is written it feels like they intended it as a grapple resisted only with endurance as long as you need to breath.


Thanks for the other takes on it guys

Beat and resist aren't necessarily the same thing.  Resisting a one stress hit is usually going to be less important than getting the thing TF off yourself.
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Offline Haru

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2011, 07:36:23 PM »
I think I finally wrapped my head around one thing that are bothering me about Orbius and DoT spells in general: they're boring.
If you have someone in your grasp, blocking his every action and/or slowly suffocating/burning/something him without additional effort, isn't that kind of like you already took him out? Why go through more exchanges just ticking up stress without anything actually happening?

A house rule could be implemented as kind of a stunt that is included in evocation. Basically it would let you do the grapple trapping from might with discipline, literally willing someone down. All the other rules would still apply: You need an aspect (which would not need to be of magic origin) and you would need to roll every exchange to keep the grapple running, resulting in appropriate casting stress every exchange. That way, you would be more limited, but it would still be possible, if you really wanted to do it.

Or use thaumaturgy, if you want to have a more complicated spell. But that is probably a "hit and the target is taken out" spell, see above.

Otherwise, just block first and shoot later, or hit it with everything you got in the first exchange, so you won't have a need for a block. Attack or defend, I am always a fan of forcing a decision here instead of allowing a mix. No pain no gain, so to speak.

Quote
Anyway, the real problem is the block.
What exactly do you mean by that? The "block against all actions" part? As long as there is no additional damage, I have no problem with that. In fact, look at Elaine's air bubble spell from SK. It is effectively that: a block against every action. And it takes Harry out, at least by concession, without a single shift of stress flying during that scene.
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Offline sinker

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2011, 08:55:16 PM »
And if you have multiple targets, you can make it zone-wide.

To be purely technical the RAW doesn't allow you to extend offensive blocks zone wide.

Quote from: Your Story: 252
2 shifts of power allow the effect to cover
multiple allies within the same zone (typically
the same zone the wizard occupies). Covering
multiple zones requires 2 additional shifts
per zone.

So technically you can only extend a block to multiple allies.  :P  I know it's a bit of a jerk move, but it's totally what the rules say.

Offline Haru

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Re: Orbius hurts my head
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2011, 01:03:53 AM »
So technically you can only extend a block to multiple allies.
I don't have a quote at the moment, but isn't a block either on 1 person, blocking multiple actions or a zonewide block blocking only one action against multiple targets? I seem to remember there being a restriction like that somewhere, but I am unable to find it right now.
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