Cleaning Up The Stunt List

[ways and means]

There's something about Trained as a Unit that seemed like an attempt to get the benefits of a group-based Aspect without having to worry about getting Compelled. But would requiring a related Aspect (to define what group/Unit you were trained to work in) be too much of a hindrance? I can't see, for example, a Trained Mossad agent being able to gel with a unit of NY S.W.A.T.

I imagine any gm could just say no in that situation what I am a little dubious about is what the stunts effect actually is if two people are trying to kill the same opponent with a groovy combo attack would this stunt boost their rolls (powerful but between the two players it cost 2 refresh) or would it only boost rolls for when people are laying aspects for allies to tag if that is the case why do both pc need the stunt when only one player has to roll for the aspect, or is it getting a +2 when ever tagging a teamwork aspects on top of the tag itself which again would be quite good but cost at least 2 refresh between players .   

[Silverblaze]

Trained as a unit is a way to get Pack instincts without being a pack of wolves.  I see it's purpose and I like it.  however, my group is playing a group of war veterans and friends.  That stunt is OP for us.  Even if it only increases by +1 instead of +2.  I like the idea don't get me wrong.  It seems strong this way, but might be too weak if it only applies to maneuvers or teamwork.

[Sanctaphrax]

@computerking:

You seem to have two problems here.

Not sure what the first one, about the benefits of an aspect without the drawbacks, actually is. Please explain.

As for the second one, about how not everyone with this stunt should work together well, I thought of that. Generally speaking, all stunts should be named and flavoured according to the character who has them. So the "Trained As A Unit" stunt of a member of one unit won't be the same as that of a member of another unit. So they won't work together.

I suppose that that wasn't clear. Will edit.

@ways and means:

I'm sorry, the meaning of your post has escaped me. Please clarify.

@Silverblaze:

It's explicitly limited to maneuvers.

Are you talking about the old version here?

[Silverblaze]

I'm talking about both versions.

One seems too strong the other seems a little too weak.

To me anyhow.

[Sanctaphrax]

Oh, okay.

Well, the old version is dead. As you said, it was overpowered.

Any ideas on how to make the new version more worthwhile?

[ways and means]

Oh, okay.

Well the old version is dead. As you said, it was overpowered.

Any ideas on how to make the new version more worthwhile?

I would make the stunt give a bonus when invoking a teamwork aspects perhaps a +1 for every aspects invoked that turn (so if multiple allies with this stunt use their turn to boost one characters action all the stunts count.)

Possibly with a pre-requisite stunt that gives a +2 to teamwork maneuvers.   

[Tedronai]

I would make the stunt give a bonus when invoking a teamwork aspects perhaps a +1 if only one player needs the stunt or a +2 if both players need the stunt.

^fixed

[Silverblaze]

Oh, okay.

Well, the old version is dead. As you said, it was overpowered.

Any ideas on how to make the new version more worthwhile?

Bolded print from quote: I think calling it dead is presumptious.  The old stunt had merit. Units should gain benefit from multiple skills.  I'd lower the benefi to a +1, in more circumstances. 

I forget the wording in the sourcebook please help me out.

Are blocks considered manuevers for purposes of stunt bonuses?

If so my idea for the stunt will alter somewhat.

Optimally characters should either have aspects related to being in the same unit or have had aspects related to being in the same unit to tkae this stunt.

Trained as a Unit: +1 to any skill for the purposes of creating or defending against mauevers,aspects, and/or blocks.  In order to gain this bonus the character must be working in tandem with another character with this stunt from the same unit.

Note: this might be overpowered, but my group doesn't use a lot of maneuvers and blocks.  I see this as a failing on our part, but as a result I can't say if +1 would really be that game breaking.


A Well Oiled Machine: Requires -  Trained As a Unit. :: some enhancement to the old stunt or apply the bonus in additional circumstances (trying to avoid out and out combat attck rolls)  [perhaps alertness (including initiative)?]

[Tedronai]

Trained as a Unit: +1 to any skill for the purposes of creating or defending against mauevers,aspects, and/or blocks.  In order to gain this bonus the character must be working in tandem with another character with this stunt from the same unit.

'aspects' should be replaced with 'assessments' to preclude attacks (which create aspects in the form of consequences) and since I don't really see how teamwork could assist with declarations

[Sanctaphrax]

Warning: I'm about to ramble.

The old stunt was awful in numerous ways. It had to go.

I'm not exactly opposed to the idea of multi-skill stunts. But I'm not sure that they're possible by the RAW.

If they are, they should take a significant hit to power in exchange for their extreme broadness.

I would expect a unit to take multiple stunts if they wanted to benefit from their exceptional teamwork with multiple skills.

I can't think of any reason for blocks to be considered maneuvers for the purposes of stunt bonuses.

I don't think that a stunt should raise the invocation bonus, because that will frequently create a bonus greater than the normal limit of +1.

[Silverblaze]

I like game balance...a lot.  However, I'm not sure there is a fair way to make a stunt like trained as a unit work, and have balance.  Therefore I'll stay out of this one and use it in games I am in as i see fit.

[Gatts]

One Big Lie: Tell a lie long enough and you begin to believe it. Pick a statement that isn't true. Add two to your Deceit skill when using it to convince someone that that statement is true. Reduce the bonus provided by this stunt to one when it applies to a social or mental attack.

A question for this one, actually. Isn't one lie rather specific for a +2 bonus?

[Sanctaphrax]

I strongly considered letting it give +2 to attacks as compensation for narrowness.

But I decided to err on the side of caution because some lies get told over and over again.

"No sir, it's just a weather balloon. There is no such thing as magic."

[Anher]

One Big Lie: Tell a lie long enough and you begin to believe it. Pick a statement that isn't true. Add two to your Deceit skill when using it to convince someone that that statement is true. Reduce the bonus provided by this stunt to one when it applies to a social or mental attack.

I see an issue here... Deceit is one of the key Social Attack and Defense Skills... in fact two of the trappings where this would be extremely useful are essentially social conflict, which in turn lead to Social attacks.

I can see where it's useful for the Misdirection Trapping, but this really seems to be aimed at the Falsehood & Deception trapping. So, maybe a +2 to the result of a successful Social Attack when repeating a well worn lie would be a way to cover that.

Or maybe make that application a different stunt.

[Sanctaphrax]

I am sorry, the meaning of your post escapes me. Could you please explain further?