Refinement

[Revlid]

So, I just noticed that the Refinement ability has no "Musts".

Therefore, I could technically take it without having any other kind of spellcasting ability.
Useless for new elements and specializations, of course, but what about enchanted items? Could I use this loophole to produce a potion-brewer with no other overt spellcasting abilities?

[UmbraLux]

How are you going to create the spell stored in the potion?

[Revlid]

How are you going to create the spell stored in the potion?

The same way as normal. Nowhere does it state you actually need the ability to cast a spell stored in an enchanted item/potion, just that the effect of the potion is equivalent to a spell with a strength/complexity equal to your Lore. You can make Evocation-potions without even having Channeling. As written, you don't need any spellcasting abilities to make enchanted items, just some open item slots... Which Refinement gives you.

[UmbraLux]

Personally, I disagree - enchanted items and potions are in the thaumaturgy section.  Not under Refinement.  That said, I probably would allow one PC to take Refinement for items he uses that another PC creates.

But whatever works for your group. 

[The Mighty Buzzard]

You're bringing up some long-standing crafting arguments here.  I'm not going to jump back on those arguments.  I'm going to point out that you have nothing to refine.  Per the Description:

Experienced  spellcasters  learn in  time how  to  refine and  focus  their abilities, gaining greater strength and diversity.

You're not an experienced spellcaster and you have no abilities to refine.  It's not a Must but it is pretty glaringly obvious logic.

As always, everything is up to the GM.  Anyone trying to slip that past me as a GM though would get asked "Are you going for munchkin of the year or do I really look that freaking stupid?  No."

[Vairelome]

You can make Evocation-potions without even having Channeling.

I'm not sure what you meant here, given that a character cannot have both Evocation and Channeling.  If you meant either Thaumaturgy or Ritual instead of Channeling, could you point the way to a reference to support this position?  The only way to make potions is by having one of the following:  Thaumaturgy, Ritual: Crafting, or Ritual: [Thematic Subtype].

Did you mean that a character with Thaumaturgy doesn't need Evocation or Channeling to make potions with an elemental theme?  This is true, but it certainly doesn't support the rest of your argument.  A character with Thaumaturgy or Ritual: Crafting can make a potion with any theme, since potion-making is a subset of Crafting, and Thaumaturgy is essentially Ritual: [All Subtypes] (with some bonuses).  A character with Ritual: [Thematic Subtype] can make potions within that thematic subtype, but not other potions.  The elemental themes of Evocation are perfectly valid thematic subtypes for Ritualists; for example, a Fire specialist might have Channeling: Fire or Ritual: Pyromancy or both.

[tymire]

Why couldn't you do it this way for special items that your character has access too?  I mean it would be perfect for batman...  "Where did you get such wonderfull toys?".

[The Mighty Buzzard]

First because Batman is a Plain Mortal and taking a Power would lose him that.  A simple resources Stunt could be used to pull out the old Bat Shark Repellent when necessary.

Second, because if you want to go that route with a supernatural, you need to take at least Rituals (Crafting).  Refinement has to have something to refine.  Personally, I don't allow Ritual (Crafting) characters but your GM may.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm away from books right now, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say no.

I'm pretty sure that by the RAW Crafting is an application of Thaumaturgy.

I'm even more sure that by the RAI Crafting is an application of Thaumaturgy.

I'm absolutely certain that giving Focused Practitioner Crafters a 2 refresh discount on their powers is a bad idea from a balance perspective.

But I know that some people will allow Refinement to be taken without spellcasting and used to maintain Enchanted Items made by others.

[Revlid]

You're bringing up some long-standing crafting arguments here.  I'm not going to jump back on those arguments.  I'm going to point out that you have nothing to refine.

I'm not using the Refinement power to represent refinement. I'm using it to represent pure crafting/potionbrewing ability.

I can take Claws without them actually, literally being claws. I can take Wings without having any literal wings. Breath Weapon has been canonically used to represent thrown handfuls of burning faeces.

I don't think this particular counts-as is a massive stretch.

As always, everything is up to the GM.  Anyone trying to slip that past me as a GM though would get asked "Are you going for munchkin of the year or do I really look that freaking stupid?  No."

...But if I took Refinement instead, for one refresh more, which gives me all those benefits and the ability to use Thaumaturgy, this would be totally balanced? I think it's obvious that someone doing this wouldn't be doing it for the power.

I'm not sure what you meant here, given that a character cannot have both Evocation and Channeling.  If you meant either Thaumaturgy or Ritual instead of Channeling, could you point the way to a reference to support this position?  The only way to make potions is by having one of the following:  Thaumaturgy, Ritual: Crafting, or Ritual: [Thematic Subtype].

Uh, no. I can get potions with enchanted item slots. I can get enchanted item slots with Evocation or Channeling just as well as I can with Thaumaturgy or Ritual.

Did you mean that a character with Thaumaturgy doesn't need Evocation or Channeling to make potions with an elemental theme?  This is true, but it certainly doesn't support the rest of your argument.

No, I mean that a character with just Thaumaturgy doesn't need any kind of Evocation ability (be it Evocation or Channeling) to store Evocation effects in an enchanted item. Similarly, a character with just Evocation doesn't need any kind of Thaumaturgic ability (be it Thaumaturgy or Ritual) to store Thaumaturgic effects in an enchanted item. So I don't need Evo to make Evo potions, and I don't need Thaum to make Thaum potions... What's stopping me from being a pure potions-brewer?

I'm pretty sure that by the RAW Crafting is an application of Thaumaturgy.

You don't need Thaumaturgy to get slots for enchanted items. You can get them just by purchasing Evocation, or even Channelling. Therefore, Thaumaturgy nor any variant of it is a necessary prerequisite for crafting enchanted items.

I'm absolutely certain that giving Focused Practitioner Crafters a 2 refresh discount on their powers is a bad idea from a balance perspective.

It's not a discount. They're only receiving enchanted items and/or potions. No Thaumaturgy, no Evocation. Given that Ritual is only one point of refresh more, and gives you just as many item slots as well as limited thaumaturgy, I don't think this idea can be called overpowered.

[sinker]

Here's the thing Revlid. I might be ok with someone taking refinement to represent items that someone else made, however it's been well established that in order to create your own items in play you must have Ritual or Thaumaturgy (or the GM's ok). Crafting of any items or foci is a form of Thaumaturgy.

A long time ago we spoke with Fred on a similar idea and he said that when one has Channeling/Evocation but no Ritual/Thaumaturgy then it's assumed that you've gotten help making what you've got or have intuitively created something through use, but you can't make any changes to what you've got without GM fiat. What that tells me is that the creation of items is solely Thaumaturgy's domain.

[Sanctaphrax]

Oops, made a slight mistake in my last post here. It's a 1 refresh discount, not a 2 refresh one. I forgot about Ritual's item slots.

Now, let me explain why you face such opposition with this idea.

One of the most powerful and "munchkin-friendly" builds in this game is a Focused Practitioner with Ritual (Crafting) and a pile of Refinement.

Ritual (Crafting) offers absolutely nothing that your proposed interpretation of Refinement does not. And it costs an additional point of Refresh.

By letting people use Refinement in this way, you essentially give that build an extra point of Refresh for free.

Given that that build is arguably game-breaking as-is, this is not a good thing.

PS: I don't think that Evocation lets you make Enchanted Items. Give me a moment, I'll find some links.

[Sanctaphrax]

A brief comment supporting your side: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,18840.msg842780.html#msg842780

A brief question and answer in which the game's creator supports my side, with some hesitation: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,23712.15.html

For what it's worth, I have no problem with Channellers having foci. Not sure about the RAW here, but it seems only reasonable.

[Revlid]

Ritual (Crafting) offers absolutely nothing that your proposed interpretation of Refinement does not. And it costs an additional point of Refresh.

Why on earth would you take Ritual (Crafting)? Why not just take Ritual (thematic) and fluff out all your enchanted items as being based off that theme? That's what I'd do, if I wanted to power-grub. Ritual (Demonology) would give me access to damn near any effect I wanted, provided I gave it an infernal skin.

"Pure Refinement" is only free refresh for the players who are unimaginative enough to miss out on the potential of a thematic Ritual. For everyone else, it's less optimal than taking Ritual.

PS: I don't think that Evocation lets you make Enchanted Items. Give me a moment, I'll find some links.

"Item Slots. Evocation comes with two free Focus Item Slots (page 278). You can design the items that fit into these slots now, or later on during play. A single Focus Item Slot may be traded in for two Enchanted Item Slots (page 279). You may gain more Item Slots as one of the options on the Refinement ability (page 182)."

[Sanctaphrax]

You can use the focus slots from Evocation for Enchanted Items. Everyone agrees on that.

The question is, can you do that if you don't have some level of Thaumaturgy to make Enchanted Items with in the first place? Not everyone agrees on that.

PS: The Crafter build isn't really intended to cast spells. Its power comes from its items. So avoiding possible thematic limitations is well worth losing the chance to cast rituals.

See, the limitations on diabolism are up to your GM/group. If you let someone just do whatever they please with a demonic skin, then you're right. But that can't be relied on. And people often look around for ways to nerf crafting. So you want something that definitely works, regardless of interpretation.

PPS: IIRC, the coffee lady in YS has Ritual (Crafting). I swear, it's a real thing.

PPPS: It actually might not be worth 1 refresh to upgrade from just Crafting to full Thaumaturgy. After all, each Refinement is 40+ shifts worth of items for your standard optimized Crafter.