The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
A Fallen scorned (GS spoilers)
PirateJack:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 14, 2011, 02:42:51 PM --- The point is she failed. Her shadow fell in love with Harry and took his side and helped him.. The moment Lasciel's shadow truly becomes Lash, not just Harry's nickname for her, she says pointedly, softly, shaking her head, "She doesn't deserve you.." So not just Harry scorned Lasciel, but her own shadow did. Also remember what distressed Lasciel/Lash so much was when her host Harry died, she died.. So the fallen angel's revenge wasn't just on Harry it was on her shadow, Lash as well, both scorned her.
--- End quote ---
All the examples of whispering Vairelome posted happen after White Night. After Lash has sacrificed herself. After Lasciel's coin was dug up from its place in Harry's basement. Lasciel found out what had happened either at the moment the circle was broken (since Lash is still there she'd have had a link, albeit a weak one) or after she was recovered by Nicodemus (if she was).
--- Quote ---No, we have no facts, it is never said that it was, those are merely guesses. Since Lasciel's shadow had been doing all of the whispering and she got transformed back in White Night, she also got transformed into Lash by her love for Harry. She became independent of Lasciel, there is evidence shortly after in White Night when she says "all that I can my host..." after Harry plays and just before he digs up the coin and gives to to Father Forthill, that Lash whispered to Harry. That wasn't Lasciel, we also have the WOJ if you believe him that the only appearance of Lasciel after that was in Changes.
--- End quote ---
It's not being said that Lash was the one doing the whispering. We're saying that after Lasciel's coin was unburied she became the one to whisper in Harry's ear the depressing thoughts that have already been posted.
--- Quote ---Oh Lasciel did appear in Changes and was the whispering shadow we see in GS. My argument is she is not the one who is whispering anything to Harry in Turn Coat.. There is no evidence of it.
--- End quote ---
There are educated guesses. The series isn't finished so we can't look back with hindsight, only post our theories from the evidence we have in the released books. This seems like a semi-solid theory to me with decent evidence to back it up.
--- Quote ---Except back in Death Masks through to that point in White Night, she was trying to seduce Harry to take up the coin.. He didn't, in the cave in White Night, her shadow tried desperately to get Harry to take up the coin, to save both their lives. Harry refused.. Then Lasciel becoming Lash, says " she doesn't deserve you." At that moment the fallen angel Lasciel became the woman scorned. Not just by Harry, but by her own shadow because of Harry. At that point she wanted them both dead. And yeah, revenge is a dish best served cold.. She waited, till Harry reached his lowest point, along with facts he could not argue against.. 1] he was helpless. 2] He was little Maggie's father, while how she got into trouble maybe wasn't his fault, the fact that she was in the world, was. "And it is all your fault.." Those are not the words of seduction, those are the words of revenge.
--- End quote ---
True enough, we're just arguing that Lasciel possibly whispered more than once. Think of it as following a marked path to a river, rather than hoping to find an oasis. Chances are Harry would have found himself at the lowest point he could at some point, and Lasciel would be there, but it's also true that continued whispering would make him more likely to take the course of action that would result in his death. Besides, it fits Lasciel's MO to give subtle nudges every so often, rather than one big strike.
jimmercubed:
I apologize if this point has been brought up before, but this is a long thread.
I don't see why Lasciel would want to destroy Harry in the first place. She's the Web Weaver, the Deceiver, she's been around since the dawn of time. She isn't human, in any sense of the word. All that Harry has done so far is proven himself to be more powerful than any other host that she has ever dealt with. Keep in mind the sense of scope we're talking about here: Since the dawn of time, Harry is the only one to have not taken up the coin already.
Harry is unique, to her. Not in the human sense of the word, where everyone's a special snowflake or whatever, but truly unique, in the I've-been-alive-since-the-dawn-of-time-and-you're-the-only-one sense of the word. Why would Lasciel go for the short-term vindication of destroying someone so truly special? In the sense of scope that she plays in, why waste what is such a truly epic resource?
Tl;Dr: Lasciel plays long term. Why settle for a short-term, destructive goal?
Paladino:
--- Quote from: jimmercubed on December 14, 2011, 06:00:06 PM ---Tl;Dr: Lasciel plays long term. Why settle for a short-term, destructive goal?
--- End quote ---
Hell hath no fury for scorned woman?? They dont tend to be pratical in these situations, especially since as Mira pointed, she is probally also furious with Lash.
knnn:
So two thoughts:
-- Lasciel, being a cosmic being and all, just she know that Uriel can intervene if she whispers those 7 words? Why doesn't she take into consideration that Harry's death won't take? Or maybe she *did* take it into account...
-- What do you guys think of Lasciel's coin being stored at the Carpenters? I mean, it's apparently a more secure place to store Maggie Jr. than any other place in whole with the angel guards and Mouse and all.
Vairelome:
--- Quote from: jimmercubed on December 14, 2011, 06:00:06 PM ---Tl;Dr: Lasciel plays long term. Why settle for a short-term, destructive goal?
--- End quote ---
What Paladino said, with the added point that the title of this thread comes from the following WOJ concerning Lasciel's current motivations:
2009 Chicago signing:
--- Quote from: WoJ ---Q: Will we see Lash or Lasciel again?
A: Lasciel’s story is not over. And keep in mind what’s said about ‘a woman scorned.’ Also keep in mind that Lasciel is NOT Lash; Lasciel did not reabsorb the entity that Harry actually changed. (Yes, he use those words “that Harry actually changed.”)
--- End quote ---
JB is referring to the proverb, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." The clear implication is that Lasciel has discovered that her shadow has failed in its mission--to get Harry to claim Lasciel's coin--and is furious at Harry's rejection of her. IF she is aware that her shadow not only failed, but also switched teams and is not "dead," then Mira is right in that Lasciel would be furious at Lash as well as Harry. (There's a chance that Lasciel was told that her shadow had been somehow destroyed, and has not yet found out otherwise. Certainly, once she discovers the truth about Lash, Lash will be right at the top of Lasciel's hit list.)
--- Quote from: knnn on December 14, 2011, 06:29:10 PM ----- Lasciel, being a cosmic being and all, just she know that Uriel can intervene if she whispers those 7 words? Why doesn't she take into consideration that Harry's death won't take? Or maybe she *did* take it into account...
--- End quote ---
Lasciel is described as a temptress, a webweaver, a deceiver of great subtlety. However, according to the author, she is now in a state of fury, and furious people tend not to be cautious, even if they are normally so. They tend to disregard reasons for not smashing whatever it is that they are furious at. In this case, Lasciel probably did not consider the downsides--Harry Dresden dared to reject her, and for that he must die. Her tendency to subtlety and manipulation came through in the manner that she engineered his death, which was to force him into committing "suicide."
--- Quote from: knnn on December 14, 2011, 06:29:10 PM ----- What do you guys think of Lasciel's coin being stored at the Carpenters? I mean, it's apparently a more secure place to store Maggie Jr. than any other place in whole with the angel guards and Mouse and all.
--- End quote ---
Well, the daycare center above the police station is a very safe place to keep your kids, but that doesn't mean you'd want to store nuclear waste in the same building.
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