The Dresden Files > DF Reference Collection
A Fallen scorned (GS spoilers)
Vairelome:
The relevant bits from DM, from the last three pages of the book (underline added by me, other emphasis from the original text):
--- Quote from: TurnCoat,Ch.33 ---I panicked abruptly and lunged out ahead of him, slapping my hand down over a polished silver coin before the child could squat down to pick it up. I felt a prickling jolt shoot up my arm, and had the sudden, intangible impression that someone nearby was waking up from a nap and stretching.
...
I left the cookout without saying good-bye, and headed home. I heard something the whole time, something whispering almost inaudibly. I drowned it out with loud and off-key singing, and got to work.
Ten hours later, I put down the excavating pick and glowered at the two-foot hole I had chipped in my lab's concrete floor. The whispering in my head had segued into "Sympathy for the Devil" by the Stones.
"Harry," whispered a gentle voice.
I dropped the coin into the hole. I slipped a steel ring about three inches across around it. I muttered to myself and willed energy into the ring. The whispering abruptly cut off.
--- End quote ---
The underlined phrasing is consistent with the description of the examples Salacia gave in the original post. "whispered a quiet voice in my head," "a voice somewhere within the storm of my chest whispered," "whispered a voice in the back of my head," and "said the little sane voice in my head" all have some combination of the specific phrases "whisper[ed/ing]," "voice," and "in my head." In each case, the content of the whisper is something that would induce despair or self-destructive action on Harry's part, consistent with the eventual effect of the whispering shadow's seven words.
There is reason to think this is not an accident. We know that JB's writing style uses "tags," or specific, repeated phrases linked to a given character that are meant to evoke the memory of that character. In this case, the scene in DM would be setting up a tag of "anonymous whispering voice in Harry's head" as a marker of Lasciel's influence. This wouldn't mean that every whisper Harry hears would be Lasciel, but in order for the tag system to work unambiguously, other whispers would have to be linked to a specified not-Lasciel speaker. So phrases like "I said to myself" would not be at all the same thing, because that indicates a conversation that was purely internal to Harry.
Here's what would disprove, or at least weaken, the theory: an example of an anonymous whispering voice in Harry's head that is later clearly established to be someone other than Lasciel. "Hush, now" is a possibility (the second whisper at the very end of Changes), because that's often believed to be Mab, but in the context revealed later in GS, it's possible that it was Lasciel--either explanation makes sense, though the meaning would be very different.
--- Quote from: TheCuriousFan on December 12, 2011, 12:21:30 PM ---what are the odds he got Lasciel's coin back in the time between White Night and Turn Coat?
--- End quote ---
It would definitely be the sort of thing Nicodemus has done before, though the timing for Lasciel's coin would have to be "after Small Favor" not just "after White Night." Remember, at the end of SmF, it comes as a huge shock to Nicodemus that Lasciel's shadow doesn't take over Harry's body, and I'd expect that he'd know this if he had already recovered Lasciel's coin. I think that Harry's reveal at the end of SmF was what caused Nicodemus to seek out and recover Lasciel's coin. He may well have been hunting other coins before then.
Mira:
--- Quote ---The underlined phrasing is consistent with the description of the examples Salacia gave in the original post. "whispered a quiet voice in my head," "a voice somewhere within the storm of my chest whispered," "whispered a voice in the back of my head," and "said the little sane voice in my head" all have some combination of the specific phrases "whisper[ed/ing]," "voice," and "in my head." In each case, the content of the whisper is something that would induce despair or self-destructive action on Harry's part, consistent with the eventual effect of the whispering shadow's seven words.
--- End quote ---
Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin. If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment.. On the contrary, we see the character and strength with in Harry that ultimately lead to his rejection of it even in the face of madness or death in White Night.
That isn't to say the Lasciel didn't show up to whisper those seven words to Harry in Changes, or that she didn't know the right buttons to push in her the intended victim of her revenge.. However it was outside influences that brought Harry to this vulnerable state, not any continued whispering of Lasciel. Harry fought against the odds as he always does, trying to get a coalition together to try and save his little girl, it wasn't till he was paralyzed with a severed spinal cord, on a back board in Father Forthill's back room with no more options left, that he gave into despair, that is when evil pounced as evil always does, "and it is all your fault..."
The words were malevolent, with no other intention than to destroy Harry, to drive him to suicide. The past influences of Lasciel or her shadow was to manipulate Harry into accepting the coin, to do her will to do evil to others not himself. Harry had thrown that off he had rejected her and she was pissed. It may be that just because the coins are taken out of circulation, it doesn't mean the fallen trapped within is still without some ability independent of it.
Notice also that when Uriel showed the playback, the image was beside Harry whispering, if it came from inside his head, I do not think he could have seen anything, nor do I think if Lasciel had remain an influence at all, that Uriel would either have appeared to Harry or give him Soul Fire.
stonebasher:
--- Quote --- Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin. If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment..
--- End quote ---
Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry? Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him. The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait.
Vairelome:
--- Quote from: Mira on December 14, 2011, 06:12:48 AM ---Except that in the final page when he buries the coin, he talks about what he is doing to combat the whisper, there is also a sense of determination to bury the coin. If it was inducing despair or self destruction, it wasn't at that moment.. On the contrary, we see the character and strength with in Harry that ultimately lead to his rejection of it even in the face of madness or death in White Night.
--- End quote ---
I should have said, "in each of the examples Salacia quotes." Of course Lasciel wasn't trying to induce despair or (directly) self-destructive action in the section I quoted from DM. She didn't have the motive to do so yet. I quoted the section from DM to lay out the argument that JB was setting up a tag to identify Lasciel's influence later in the series, and then showed how the sections Salacia quoted from TC and Changes were consistent with that tag. Salacia's four quotes were also consistent with each other by evident motivation, which would tend to support the conclusion that they were from the same source, as they happened reasonably near each other in time (one from TC, the others from Changes).
--- Quote from: Mira on December 14, 2011, 06:12:48 AM ---However it was outside influences that brought Harry to this vulnerable state, not any continued whispering of Lasciel.
--- End quote ---
How do you know this? We've presented a reasonably compelling argument that Lasciel had in fact been whispering to Harry over a period of time before he broke his back. There were certainly several other large factors that contributed to Harry's very painful overall situation, but I don't see why you're assuming that Lasciel's whisper was a one-time event when there is evidence to the contrary.
--- Quote from: Mira on December 14, 2011, 06:12:48 AM ---Notice also that when Uriel showed the playback, the image was beside Harry whispering, if it came from inside his head, I do not think he could have seen anything, nor do I think if Lasciel had remain an influence at all, that Uriel would either have appeared to Harry or give him Soul Fire.
--- End quote ---
It sounds like you are making an argument here that Lasciel wasn't the whispering shadow. If that's your argument, and if you're right, where did Lasciel appear in GS?
Mira:
--- Quote from: stonebasher on December 14, 2011, 07:17:33 AM --- Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry? Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him. The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait.
--- End quote ---
The point is she failed. Her shadow fell in love with Harry and took his side and helped him.. The moment Lasciel's shadow truly becomes Lash, not just Harry's nickname for her, she says pointedly, softly, shaking her head, "She doesn't deserve you.." So not just Harry scorned Lasciel, but her own shadow did. Also remember what distressed Lasciel/Lash so much was when her host Harry died, she died.. So the fallen angel's revenge wasn't just on Harry it was on her shadow, Lash as well, both scorned her.
--- Quote ---How do you know this? We've presented a reasonably compelling argument that Lasciel had in fact been whispering to Harry over a period of time before he broke his back. There were certainly several other large factors that contributed to Harry's very painful overall situation, but I don't see why you're assuming that Lasciel's whisper was a one-time event when there is evidence to the contrary.
--- End quote ---
No, we have no facts, it is never said that it was, those are merely guesses. Since Lasciel's shadow had been doing all of the whispering and she got transformed back in White Night, she also got transformed into Lash by her love for Harry. She became independent of Lasciel, there is evidence shortly after in White Night when she says "all that I can my host..." after Harry plays and just before he digs up the coin and gives to to Father Forthill, that Lash whispered to Harry. That wasn't Lasciel, we also have the WOJ if you believe him that the only appearance of Lasciel after that was in Changes.
--- Quote ---.
It sounds like you are making an argument here that Lasciel wasn't the whispering shadow. If that's your argument, and if you're right, where did Lasciel appear in GS?
--- End quote ---
Oh Lasciel did appear in Changes and was the whispering shadow we see in GS. My argument is she is not the one who is whispering anything to Harry in Turn Coat.. There is no evidence of it.
--- Quote --- Why would it induce a sense of despair or self-destruction if it was trying to seduce Harry? Besides, the fallen had already implanted (imprinted?) her shadow into him. The angel has been alive since the beginning of time, it can wait.
--- End quote ---
Except back in Death Masks through to that point in White Night, she was trying to seduce Harry to take up the coin.. He didn't, in the cave in White Night, her shadow tried desperately to get Harry to take up the coin, to save both their lives. Harry refused.. Then Lasciel becoming Lash, says " she doesn't deserve you." At that moment the fallen angel Lasciel became the woman scorned. Not just by Harry, but by her own shadow because of Harry. At that point she wanted them both dead. And yeah, revenge is a dish best served cold.. She waited, till Harry reached his lowest point, along with facts he could not argue against.. 1] he was helpless. 2] He was little Maggie's father, while how she got into trouble maybe wasn't his fault, the fact that she was in the world, was. "And it is all your fault.." Those are not the words of seduction, those are the words of revenge.
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