Seventh Law Question

[Magickal_Grenadier]

So in my game, I'm going to have my players stumble across an incomplete ritual text pertaining to one of the Walkers (it's written in Daedric) and I was wondering something. When they find the text, would it be considered an automatic addition of Lawbreaker [Seventh] to their characters or would it only count when they actually succeed in translating the text? Prolly a complete noob question but I've been mulling it over and over in my mind for a few days now.

[zenten]

I don't see why having the text would gain them the Lawbreaker power (how the wardens might respond is a different question, but they don't have perfect knowledge of what the PCs have done).  Even translating it probably wouldn't count, at least not a partial translation, depending on why they are translating it.

[Magickal_Grenadier]

Well I've been thinking about it because it's stated in the books that and kind of research, intended or unintended, is enough to bring the wrath of teh Council down on the researchee.

[zenten]

Ah, OK.  I see any situation where the PCs don't either destroy the book or hand it over right away to the wardens, and then the white council finds out, as being the sort where the PCs will have to win some social combat to keep from losing their heads.

[Belial666]

"You shall not seek Knowledge or Power from beyond the Outer Gates"

The text counts as knowledge. And yes, even knowing of such things is a Law violation; the 7th is the most serious of the Laws and messing with it is not reccomended. Usually, anyway.

[Magickal_Grenadier]

That's exactly the reason I was wondering but would Lawbreaker [Seventh] be added at the moment of discovering the text or not until they are able to translate and understand the text?

[Tedronai]

It probably shouldn't get them a Lawbreaker if they don't know what it says, and definitely if they don't even know what it is
Now, if they A) consciously decide to keep it AFTER they translate enough to either know what it is, or B) gain (or have the potential to gain) some meaningful benefit from the contents (with or without knowing what the whole is), THEN they should gain a Lawbreaker stunt
And, of course, none of that really pertains to whether or not the Wardens will lop your head off...

[Quasispike]

A couple of clarification questions first.

1) Do the Characters know what the book is about?

2) Do the PCs know what they're dealing with?

3) How did they acquire it?

I ask because, firstly the Law states: Never seek knowledge and power from beyond the outer gates. I add the emphasis for this reason. Hypothetically my Ex-Warden grandfather dies and I inherit a bunch of his books... in the collection is a undeciphered tome upon the outer gates. I haven't sought the knowledge, nor do I truely HAVE the knowledge. I'd say just possessing the tome doesn't mechanically violate the Law. The white council might still lop my head off... just in case... I mean we are talking the outer gates here, better safe than sorry. But no Lawbreaker stunt. If I start translating the tome, at somepoint very early it should be apparent what I'm dealing with, at this point I'd say there's a choice, keep going and become a Lawbreaker mechanically and in the eyes of the Wardens. However if I stop at that point I'd say no Lawbreaker stunt, the white councils feelings however may vary.

Now if they know what the Tome is and sought it out with intention of acquiring it for that knowledge... Lawbreaker
If they know what the Tome is and sought it out with intention of destroying it I'd say they're doing the wardens job. Those are the... flavor reasons why I'd say... it depends.

Metagame; if your PCs don't know what they're dealing with, just picking up the tome and getting nailed with a Lawbreaker stunt seems REALLY unfair; were I playing in that game I'd be pissed. If they PCs ooc know what they're dealing with it fine as long as they knew ooc that ic consequences would result... it'd be metagaming but especially in this instance having fun trumps playing in character.

As an aside, were a GM to say to me: "After vanquishing the Warlock you find prominently displayed in his study a tome written in some strange most likely inhuman language. Out of character messing with this book might have serious character ramifications, like LAWBREAKER serious." I'd probably respond... "Ok, that sounds like that could be a fun character twist! I pick up the Tome!" but that's with full disclosure and consent, a big part of our hobby that somet.. ofttimes gets left by the wayside is communication. As a GM you shouldn't force a change upon your PC without their consent, that's especially true in a game that's all about free will and choices!

Whew... ok done ranting.

[zenten]

I firmly believe that given the way the various rules work (such as Taken Out for the First Law) no character should gain any Lawbreaker power (as an aside, it's a power, I don't know why people keep calling it a stunt) without their player (not necessarily their character) being given a choice between taking an action that will result in gaining the power (not maybe gaining it, but flat out will gain it), and taking an action that will not.  This includes the 7th Lawbreaker power.

Also, "take this action that will result in gaining the power or you will flat out die" and "here's a compel to take the power, and BTW you have no fate points" aren't cool either.

[Magickal_Grenadier]

Well I had planned for the characters to discover only a portion of the text at the first point (example: a manual to summoning one of the Walkers) that unless they are able to decipher the entire document, sill lead to the Walker being released on a murderous rampage to fuel the fear-based thamaturgic curse being aimed at the Senior Council by a Red Court Noble skillied in sorcery. In this case, should they be given the Lawbreaker power but, with a valid motive in doing so to save the lives of the Senior Council, be spared the negetive concenquences of their actions?

[sinker]

Yeah for me the seeking was always important as well. That is a tough question though. What I would do is find alternatives but make translating it the easiest route. Then you give the players a choice that is great for the story. Do you translate this text and pick up the lawbreaker power for it, but easily stop what's going on, or do you take the hard road and go into the breach unarmed? That would be excellent drama.

[Silverblaze]

At the end of the last game: (campaign,story,series of games) the finale. Our group was cast into the outside by unknown forces at the height of triumph over the local evil.  The next time the Gm runs the DFRPG he'll pick up where he left off with characters working their way back to the real world (inside?).

Should those characters all have lawbreaker stunts?

[Tedronai]

Yeah for me the seeking was always important as well. That is a tough question though. What I would do is find alternatives but make translating it the easiest route. Then you give the players a choice that is great for the story. Do you translate this text and pick up the lawbreaker power for it, but easily stop what's going on, or do you take the hard road and go into the breach unarmed? That would be excellent drama.

The problem here being that, unless they translate at least some of the text (or have as much told to them by an NPC), they have no way of knowing that there is even any cost to pursuing the path of knowledge, here.
There is very little drama in walking blindly into the Field Wherein Rocks Fall.

[zenten]

Silverblaze: Sure, but make sure to give them an extra significant milestone first

[Haru]

I don't think a lawbreaker, regardless which, should be forced on a character. Fred said something along those lines about breaking the first law, but I'd say that rule should include every law, so the player has to make the choice to give his character a lawbreaker stunt. The GM can warn him and say "Hold it there, if you proceed any further with what you are doing here, you are going to break a law of magic.", and if he doesn't change his action, he chose to take the lawbreaker. Just giving a character something to read and then handing him a lawbreaker for that is too much.

You can do it like this: "You start translating the old text, and it is pretty clear it is talking about something from beyond the outer gates. Knowledge like that is dangerous and might twist your mind. It will get you killed by the wardens, if they find out. Do you want to continue?"
That way, the lawbreaker stunt is a deliberate choice again, and it will fit the character. Otherwise it would just be 2 points of dead refresh.