Author Topic: Illusion magic  (Read 2551 times)

Offline Watson

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Illusion magic
« on: July 26, 2011, 09:37:22 AM »
I have been thinking a little regarding illusion magic after reading most of Ghost Story. Without spoiling anything in the book, there is a wizard who, in combat, casts a spell that creates a handful of copies of the wizard with the intention to confuse the attackers (the copies fights with “guns” but cannot affect the opponents, so they tend to “miss” a lot). How would you do this in the game?

First off, the copies are neither real nor physical, so we are not talking about conjuration. The first idea is that it is made a kind of veil affecting an entire zone (assuming that the five copies are in the same zone). One can veil an entire zone using an Evocation Block (+2 Complexity for an entire zone). What I am against using the route is that it would in that case be possible to create any number of copies in that zone for a mere +2 Complexity. A note – the copies move around and “act” individually, it is not one big “thing” (that a zone-wide veil can be seen as).

If it is modeled as Thaumaturgy, one could go this route: Use a base complexity of whatever the difficulty would be to visually see through the illusion (basic strategy for any veil). Add +2 for extra sense that is affected (in this case, sound is definite added). Add +2 for each extra copy (i.e. +2 for a total of 2 illusions, +4 for three illusions etc). For five Superb copies of the wizard using sight and sound, the Complexity would be 15. Really, really, hard to do using Evocation, but not impossible using Thaumaturgy.

How would you do such a spell in the game? 

Offline Rubycon

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2011, 09:51:07 AM »
I am not a rule expert, but in my opinion it is much more difficult to cast such e spell. Not only do you have to build 5 moving veils, but they at least have to look like exact replicas of the original, they have to behave and shoot like him. If they can be identified to easily as illusions, then opponents can ignore them totally and concentrate on the real target.
So, I don't see this happening as an evocation...

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2011, 09:59:01 AM »
Work backwards from effect.

The desired effect of such a spell is presumably to make it more difficult to successfully target the actual caster.
A effect making it more difficult to successfully target someone is called a block.

Adjudicate such a spell as a block.
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Offline Discipol

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 10:39:31 AM »
An illusion is a veil. Its Spirit or Air magic, but I can think of earth examples too: Like creating hollow stone dragons.

Use the spell's power against the Lore of the enemies to define how plausible it is.
It can be used as an aspect on the scene, in your favor (first free tag), as a social or mental attack EXACTLY like an intimidation check, or a maneuver(to like surround them). You might even get to make a Lore check vs a supernatural enemy and conjure an illusion of something it is afraid of. Like a tank for fey, a giant monster for a small creature, or an even bigger monster for a big one :D Or a water elemental for an enemy fire mage, a yin for his yang basically.

My DM had an idea of summoning a stone tank, another caster veiling it to look real/metally, another caster to give it proper sound. This would be: highest illusion power + aspect 1 and aspect 2 (to be added a +2 or reroll) and make a very believable threat.

I don't even dare to calculate the Weapon of a tank, especially in the distance of only one zone. Tanks are also WW 1 so they are pretty hard to hex, so an enemy trying to hex that illusion might think its just not sensible enough to the hex attempt and just RUN.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 10:45:21 AM »
Tanks are also WW 1 so they are pretty hard to hex

Sure.  If you're dealing with WWI tanks.
Modern tanks, though, are packed with more high-tech gizmos than a teenage gamer's wet dream.
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Offline Watson

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2011, 10:53:27 AM »
The desired effect of such a spell is presumably to make it more difficult to successfully target the actual caster.
A effect making it more difficult to successfully target someone is called a block.

It is an interesting idea, but if one looks beyond this particular case (i.e. outside combat), how could it be done, mechanically?

Is it even possible to do using Evocation (I know that Jim could say that anything goes, but I would like to see if it is possible using the rules in the game).

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 11:01:49 AM »
As Tedronai, I'd call it a block.  A veil if you want to be technical since it's blocking awareness of 'which one is real' but it's still a block.
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NicholasQuinn

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 11:02:45 AM »
It is an interesting idea, but if one looks beyond this particular case (i.e. outside combat), how could it be done, mechanically?


Thaumaturgy; specifically "Photomancy", covers illusions and such. Which would work outside of combat. I believe Photomancy has a section detailing it in the Your Story, however I might be mistaken.

Is it even possible to do using Evocation (I know that Jim could say that anything goes, but I would like to see if it is possible using the rules in the game).

Within the rules of the game? Yes. As Tedronai stated, it could simply be worked as the fluff for a block. Naturally such a trick is beyond Harry
(click to show/hide)
, however it might be possible for someone more like Molly. Whilst themantically its a bit of a stretch for the supposed direct magic that is Evocation, you've said it is done in Ghost Story (which I haven't read, so can't comment on), so it seems to work both in setting, and in game mechanics.

Offline Watson

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 11:52:24 AM »

Whilst themantically its a bit of a stretch for the supposed direct magic that is Evocation, you've said it is done in Ghost Story (which I haven't read, so can't comment on), so it seems to work both in setting, and in game mechanics.

It is definitely done in combat in Ghost Story (or actually pre-combat, after being chased). But I have only read about 2/3 of the book, so I can’t say if there is some kind of sponsor behind the magic (I would not think so, but that would provide "Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation"). The wizard is also creating more spell-related effects than “just” creating 5-6 illusions, making it really impressive indeed…

Offline KOFFEYKID

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 12:17:29 PM »
Remember, misleading as it is, Kemmlerian Necromancy has no sponsor. Its just advanced necromancy. I can certainly see a sponsored magic for Illusion along the same vein.

Rapid Illusions [-2]
Your skill at illusions is much greater than the average wizard, and you are able to create such things with greater speed and skill.
Musts: Evocation, Thaumaturgy (with at least some specialization in Photomancy)
Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits (page 288). Rapid Illusions comes with automatic, additional specializations in Photomancy: +1 to control, +1 to complexity, stacking on top any existing specializations. In addition you may cast photomancy spells with the speed and methods of evocation, and may substitute your control bonus for photomancy instead of the normal control bonus you would use with evocation, so long as the casting contains some element of illusion.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 12:25:13 PM by KOFFEYKID »

NicholasQuinn

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 12:38:34 PM »
It is definitely done in combat in Ghost Story (or actually pre-combat, after being chased). But I have only read about 2/3 of the book, so I can’t say if there is some kind of sponsor behind the magic (I would not think so, but that would provide "Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation"). The wizard is also creating more spell-related effects than “just” creating 5-6 illusions, making it really impressive indeed…

Then it would seem I've a lot to look forward to, awesome. Unfortunately, the book isn't released here for 2 more days. Ah, the wait can't kill me, thus must only make me stronger.

Remember, misleading as it is, Kemmlerian Necromancy has no sponsor. Its just advanced necromancy. I can certainly see a sponsored magic for Illusion along the same vein.

Rapid Illusions [-2]
Your skill at illusions is much greater than the average wizard, and you are able to create such things with greater speed and skill.
Musts: Evocation, Thaumaturgy (with at least some specialization in Photomancy)
Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits (page 288). Rapid Illusions comes with automatic, additional specializations in Photomancy: +1 to control, +1 to complexity, stacking on top any existing specializations. In addition you may cast photomancy spells with the speed and methods of evocation, and may substitute your control bonus for photomancy instead of the normal control bonus you would use with evocation, so long as the casting contains some element of illusion.

That would actually be quite useful, I'd imagine. Might have to utilise it for a character at some point. Out of curiousity though, what do you think the "sponsor's agenda" would be? What sort of things would you consider as 'payment' for any debt earnt?

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 12:43:41 PM »
A block is a block is a block.

If outside of combat, what is the effect?  Is it a maneuver?  A social attack (for something like social combat)?  Why are you doing it?  

Like was stated, start with the effect, work back from there.  Balance, power, etc. relys on the mechanical benefits of the action.  Don't over cost something just because it seems like it would be hard to do from our (Harry's) perspective.  Thematically, it would use Spirit for evocation, and I'd say Illusion (which isn't in the books but would be something like Veil magic) for Thaumaturgy.

Offline Discipol

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2011, 12:55:46 PM »
Sure.  If you're dealing with WWI tanks.
Modern tanks, though, are packed with more high-tech gizmos than a teenage gamer's wet dream.

Why wouldn't I make it a WW 1 tank? Panzers are cool, and a bucket sized bullet makes a bucket sized hole even if a ww 1 tank shoots buckets :))
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Offline Tallyrand

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 01:30:28 PM »
While a block would be appropriate another option would be to do a zone wide maneuver providing an aspect like "Illusory Shell Game", tag it to make the first shot against you miss and then throw a Fate for future attacks that you'd rather miss as well.  It's more expensive than a block (in Fate at least) but a simpler spell to cast effectively and a more reliable result.

Offline sinker

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Re: Illusion magic
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2011, 07:24:52 PM »
Additionally jumping off of what Tallyrand was saying one could use the aspect to compel goons to go chasing illusory copies while you hide, but again we are working from effect (we want the goons to go away) and picking appropriate rules to fit. Also depending on the GM they may require more than just a tag or a single fate point to compel all of the goons to go away.