The Dresden Files > GS Book Club
Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
itari:
--- Quote from: novaseaker on July 29, 2011, 04:17:01 PM ---Mab is not lying, Uriel is.
Uriel is lying when he says Mab can't change him, and Harry knows he's lying. But the truth of his seven words is irellevant. They are encouraging, and they let Harry realize he can still fight becominng a monster, even beholden to Mab.
--- End quote ---
I started a very similar thread not long ago ;)
Lord Kasavin:
--- Quote from: ali.jubilee on July 29, 2011, 06:20:35 AM ---If the shadow was not lasciel, I would be curious to know how it got into the church... Can fallen enter holy found with impunity?
--- End quote ---
Forget the Church angle, the Fallen are not allowed to interact with mortals, period. The only two exceptions is 1) a mortal summoned the Fallen first (which I think is Chancy in Fool Moon), or through the mortal will and body of a Knight of the Blackened Denarian. Church, grocery store, or Lady Gaga concert, the Fallen have to take a hands off approach.
However, it was never explained why they had to keep their hands off. Maybe it was God's will end of story, or maybe the laws of the universe insist upon it. Or maybe its because interacting with mortals outside the two exceptions is pointless, since then the good guys can return the favor. Likewise, this might be why Uriel so rarely acts directly, since the "bad guys" are allowed to rebalance the scale if he subverts human will and choice. That being said, both sides apparently are allowed to make sales pitches occasionally.
itari:
Chauncy is not a Fallen. He's a demon.
DEA:
--- Quote from: novaseaker on July 29, 2011, 04:17:01 PM ---On the subject of Mab lying and Uriel confirming it:
Mab is not lying, Uriel is.
Harry confirms that Mab is absolutely capable of changing him. He just makes her realize that doing so is not without consequences, that the very wiles and guilefullness that leads him to defy her are the very qualities that makes her want him as her Knight in the first place.
Uriel is lying when he says Mab can't change him, and Harry knows he's lying. But the truth of his seven words is irellevant. They are encouraging, and they let Harry realize he can still fight becominng a monster, even beholden to Mab.
Uriel has to balance the scales against the shadow' lie. The shadows lie clouded Harry's ability to choose to keewp fighting, to never give up. Uriel's lie let Harry see that there were options. (IE that even though Mab definately could change him, he also could definately convince her not to.)
--- End quote ---
I think you make an excellent point here, but I actually don't think either of them is lying.
Mab says she can "shape him as [she] please[s ]," but from her perspective, this means that she can get him to do what she wants. Which she can.
Harry's contention is that this is true, but based on Uriel's whisper that Mab cannot change him, and Uriel's earlier insistence that Harry "is a soul, [but has ] a body," she can ONLY change his behavior, not his soul.
Now, certainly, when a human being is told by an authority figure to do something, they will usually do it, even if it seems extreme (see: Milgram's experiments), and a human being placed in a role will often come to embrace that role and the traits stereotypically associated with it (see: the Zimbardo or Stanford Prison Experiment), and that people can derive their beliefs and attitudes based on perceptions of their own behavior (see: Bem's self-perception theory) . It is not, however, a guarantee. Mab admits that what serves her "purpose" is a free-thinking individual mortal to carry out her dictates. Harry's response, based on his understanding of Uriel's whisper, is that he will carry out her instructions to the letter, but go no further, take no initiative, and never, ever do things that she wants him to do on his own, using his own free will. He will never choose to commit these acts. And that is how Harry subverts her plan for him: he simply uses the threat of never making another choice to rob her of the champion she wants.
Of course, she's probably running a long game that in Book 16 or 17 will come back and bite Harry in the ass. I've learned a few things over the past 13 or so books.
napgirl:
i agree with DEA- i don't think either Uriel or Mab is lying. although, as previous posters have pointed out-the Sihde are perfectly capable of being deceptive even though the fact of they can't utter something that is not true.
meanhwile, the parasite? is it lash? because that is pretty much was her energy was, since her energy was dependent on harry's. and demonreach...that whole relationship is going to be interesting for sure. i think both he and mab are playing a long game.
and i think cold days will not only refer to his now being wk, but also the reception he will be facing from thomas and murph up on his return. maybe molly too- that relationship will be very interesting. not necessarily on the romance front, but from the guilt perspective of harry (despite his trust in her) and the emotional toll it has taken on her (despite her love/trust).
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