Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders

[Piotr1600]

Thanks a lot, Serack! /sarcasm   
(Now instead of mindlessly playing Minecraft and continue work building my all-glass mountain range this evening, I get to delve into the historical relationships between symbology, language & writing.)
I'll let you know if I find anything... interesting.

[Serack]

This is what I was thinking, as well.  The script around the mouth of the jar, together with the information that the individual was collecting blood from large, dangerous animals, was enough for Bob to figure out what was afoot.  I'll have to check it when I get home.

Here we go:

"What about the runes?  I thought they might be a modified Sumerian cuneiform but it didn't quite fit.
Not too far off, boss, they're arcadian mystic runes.  Old, old stuff.  Rarer than hell.

Arcadia ended up being the home of the Pelasgians, thought to be the original or indigenous inhabitants of Greece.

[X]

Keep in mind that the runes on the house and tower were able to keep the Skinwalker out, and it was furious as a result.  This to me implies that it not only knew what those runes did, but probably a general guess of the people/being responsible for the runes.  Seeing as the Holy People gave the skin walkers their abilities, it's not too much of a stretch to think they would know how to stop one.  Now what the runes  Holy People of the Amereican Southwest were doing on an island in the middle of Lake Michigan is another question all together

[vultur]

I thought "a prehistoric script" might mean it was from some lost civilization from which no history survives -- some Atlantis-type thing. (Maybe the fall of that civilization was what inspired the creation of the Archive?)

The Arcadia thing... hmmm. Well, the Pelasgians are pretty much a blank historically, so I guess any history they had would be lost...

[astelon]

Possibly the runes were meant to keep out hostile entities, and the skin walker qualified while the Denarians did not.  This would explain why the skin walker did not recognize them, and why he got so mad when he couldn't force his way through, and we don't have to come up with an explanation for how runes connected to American southwest legends got to Lake Michigan.

If the runes had been placed by the Holy People the skin walker would have likely recognized them, which he didn't seem to.

[Crinisen]

Or maybe the stones reused to make the building, are actually not in their first reusage...

Or someone much later came along and used the super-old-language-of-awesome to inscribe wardings / protection / etc on the tower.

Just because the language is old, does not mean the writing is.

[Sm0kEyNy]

Not... quite.  There have been glyphs and other forms or writing that predate a written history as we understand it.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_signs for example.  Since they're runes on the building, it's entirely possible that they were just symbols of warding and protection, carved by humans, but not necessarily the same thing as spoken words like we'd understand them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiahu_symbols also has similar symbols from an even earlier time period.

Thank you! some got the point i was tryin to make in the other thread an worded it better

[Sm0kEyNy]

I think the biggest mistake is everyone is takeing jims usage of prehistoric as the text book wiki definition
when its just as likely he used it meaning old an before well known recorded history. If it makes it into a book THEN its cannon woj are not in fallable till what he says actually happens in the books

[AcornArmy]

The runes blocked Shagnasty, but not the Denarians, Harry, the Archive, or the normal humans. The Denarians were probably as bad in intention as Shagnasty was, and the Fallen were probably at least in Shagnasty's league of power, if not beyond. Maybe the runes only block supernatural creeps who don't have souls?

The Warden question came up again in the Pre-GS thread, too, and it was noted that while the Warden apparently had something to do with preventing Shagnasty from using the Nevernever to travel to the island, the two human-seeming people were able to do so, and they were able to bring fae creatures through with them.

Two possible explanations for this come to my mind: First, that whatever is blocking Shagnasty from using the Nevernever, fae creatures are exempt from it. Or second, that once a portal is opened, any creature can pass through, even those who would be blocked from entering on their own.

If the second explanation is true, then the same magic which empowers the runes on the cottage and the tower may be what is blocking entrance onto Demonreach from the Nevernever. The wards around the island might prevent anyone who doesn't have a soul from entering the cottage or the tower, or from even opening a portal onto Demonreach from the Nevernever. Very human-centric magic. And maybe good for Harry, defense-wise, if he decides to move out there.

Still, I think this is only one of many equally likely possibilities.

[SAZ]

Another way the ruins might work is that there needs to be someone bound to the island in order for the ruins to work. In SF Harry was not yet bound to the island, therefore the Nickelheads could go into and out of the cabin and lighthouse because the ruins were dormant.

In Turn Coat Harry was bound to Demon Reach, so Demon Reach knew that Harry didn’t like the Skinkwalker and so bared its entry. Also it allowed Harry to magically shove Thomas into the cabin and the ruins didn’t prevent Thomas who is a demon possessed vamp from entering because Harry wanted to protect Thomas.

[Sm0kEyNy]

^^ thats really really good perhaps harrys Sanctum Invocation sorta rebooted the runes an whatever their purpose is *hats off*

[King Ash]

My guess on why it blocked shagnasty and not the denarians is that the fallen are locked inside of a human, while shagnasty is a purely supernatural being. So in this case I think the human part protected the denarians from the wards.

I believe that the wards were placed on the tower after it was built as I find it unlikely that if they were put on another structure then broken apart and rebuilt somewhere else that they would still work.

[Orbweaver]

The runes blocked Shagnasty, but not the Denarians, Harry, the Archive, or the normal humans. The Denarians were probably as bad in intention as Shagnasty was, and the Fallen were probably at least in Shagnasty's league of power, if not beyond. Maybe the runes only block supernatural creeps who don't have souls?

The Warden question came up again in the Pre-GS thread, too, and it was noted that while the Warden apparently had something to do with preventing Shagnasty from using the Nevernever to travel to the island, the two human-seeming people were able to do so, and they were able to bring fae creatures through with them.

Two possible explanations for this come to my mind: First, that whatever is blocking Shagnasty from using the Nevernever, fae creatures are exempt from it. Or second, that once a portal is opened, any creature can pass through, even those who would be blocked from entering on their own.

If the second explanation is true, then the same magic which empowers the runes on the cottage and the tower may be what is blocking entrance onto Demonreach from the Nevernever. The wards around the island might prevent anyone who doesn't have a soul from entering the cottage or the tower, or from even opening a portal onto Demonreach from the Nevernever. Very human-centric magic. And maybe good for Harry, defense-wise, if he decides to move out there.

Still, I think this is only one of many equally likely possibilities.

Are we certain the Skinwalker is soulless? I think Bob only stated that it has no need for gender. It certainly seemed well acquainted with what Soulfire was capable of, and of its origins. I'll grant that knowledge of it doesn't necessarily imply that the Skinwalker has a soul.

Jim has stated that the Skinwalker boasts a form of intellectus in the Shagnasty section of the WOJ thread. Here's the relevant part of the quote:

"Q:  How and why did the skinwalker take Thomas?
A:  Thomas was distracted by Binder’s minions and the skinwalker saw the opportunity.  It knew that Thomas is important to Harry, but not necessarily that Thomas is Harry’s brother.  The skinwalker exists in more than one dimension at a time and it has its own kind of intellectus when it comes to evil – it knows what will hurt you and scare you, even though it may not really know why."

DemonReach is also a spirit, and also has access to a form of intellectus. There is a metaphysical component to the Skinwalker, though whether a spirit or soul is attached isn't clearly defined. There is also the physical and mental effect it had on Harry when Dresden viewed it with his Sight to consider. 

[peregrine]

Given something someone (either Bob or Harry, maybe Thomas) said about love, sex, making a whole new soul from the merging of two souls, and how powerful it is, I would think that souls might be needed for reproduction.  So something genderless, something that doesn't procreate, would have no soul.

This is, of course, probably entirely unsupported and even contraindicated by the rest of the series though.

[Orbweaver]

Given something someone (either Bob or Harry, maybe Thomas) said about love, sex, making a whole new soul from the merging of two souls, and how powerful it is, I would think that souls might be needed for reproduction.  So something genderless, something that doesn't procreate, would have no soul.

This is, of course, probably entirely unsupported and even contraindicated by the rest of the series though.

Shaggy's origins are a bit of a mystery at this point. Presumably, he entered reality by the same means as every other Holy Person did. We do have one other example of someone who entered the world without the "parents" having relations, given the Swords that are in play.

And I'm'a shut up now before I hit a very TT with a question about whether that guy had a soul.