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Genre Craft: Expectations of a Hybrid Genre

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Haru:
I can think of only one way that guns and swords could coexist. While guns are great at killing humans and smaller critters, there might be quite a few monsters and demons out there that cannot be harmed by bullets but can still be cut into pieces by a good old sword. That way, both weapons have their validity. Having a reputation as a gunslinger might even be less impressive to some people than that of a master swordsman, and swords duels might be as common as pistol duels. You would probably need both skills to survive anyway.

A western without guns would seem sort of weird, because some of the iconic moments would simply not be possible. I wouldn't say it is impossible to do, but you would have a hard time establishing it against the readers expectation, but done well it should not be a problem. If you want a reason why there are no guns, magic as described below could be common enough so nobody ever bothered inventing them.

As for magic, I have one thing to say at first: I hate wands.
Don't get me wrong, there are places where they fit in, but magical western just isn't it. The whole western setting is rough and unpolished, so the style of magic should reflect that. Singular abilities, for example a fireslinger who can... well, sling fire. A natural gun if you will, with the same power and accuracy a gun would have. He would even have to "load" his power, engulfing his hand in fire with his will, which (coincidently!) takes about the time someone else would need to draw a gun.
Let's look at a duel. A gunslinger against a fireslinger. Both draw back their coats, the first reveals his holster holding his gun, he puts his hand next to it in the typical close up gesture. The second one reveals that he does not have a holster, maybe to intimidate the opponent, because he knows what he has coming. He too holds his hand next to where his holster would be, a nervous twitch in his index finger. On the draw, the fireslinger quickly stretches his hand, engulfing it in flame, then thrusting it forwards to throw a bolt of fire at his opponent.
Or a bar fight, some guys have their guns out, the fireslinger has his hand ablaze, when the sheriff comes in and tell him to put it out (like he would otherwise tell someone to drop a gun).
The whole spellbook, magic staff, whatever stereotype wizards stuff you have should probably not come up that often. That is "old world magic". There might still be some of those around, because a full blown sorcerer would make a great gang boss. Restricted in the old world, they can freely follow their dark desires in the new land.

Other kinds of magic could be less fight oriented. For example, I have the concept for a character called "First Aid Kid", You can guess his magical talent ;)
At a whole, if you stay mainly in the western genre, magic should probably just partially replace certain iconic objects and only for some people, while those items are still around.

Native magic (if you have an equivalent of native americans) would probably be more like druids or shamans (totems, dancing, influencing plants and animals, shifting into an animalform, stuff like that), and some of the settlers might even be learning some of it or something similar, especially scouts or similar characters would profit from this. And it is a great source for some cultural conflict. Could be even more interesting, if they use bows but there are no guns.

The fireslinger magic (any magic that does not fall under the shaman/druid category really) could either be hereditary or come from some item (no wands!). If you don't have guns, it should probably be items, so they replace the guns.

Lanodantheon:
Yet another good set of opinions....


--- Quote from: Haru on July 01, 2011, 11:37:23 PM ---I can think of only one way that guns and swords could coexist. While guns are great at killing humans and smaller critters, there might be quite a few monsters and demons out there that cannot be harmed by bullets but can still be cut into pieces by a good old sword. That way, both weapons have their validity. Having a reputation as a gunslinger might even be less impressive to some people than that of a master swordsman, and swords duels might be as common as pistol duels. You would probably need both skills to survive anyway.

--- End quote ---

I could see that(in my vision of things) as being plausible with the "Magic Swords but no Magic Bullets" axiom, which my Magic system already follows. In my system to make a long story short, if you actually made a "Magic bullet" and fired it out of a gun, it is more likely to leave a crater where your gunslinger used to be. But...monsters with immunities to "Normal weapons" and requiring magical weapons to hurt feels to much to me as an author like old editions of D&D, even if that was not your intention and besides it does date back hundreds of years to mythology.

It's a neat idea...but not really attractive to me.



--- Quote from: Haru on July 01, 2011, 11:37:23 PM ---A western without guns would seem sort of weird, because some of the iconic moments would simply not be possible. I wouldn't say it is impossible to do, but you would have a hard time establishing it against the readers expectation, but done well it should not be a problem. If you want a reason why there are no guns, magic as described below could be common enough so nobody ever bothered inventing them.

--- End quote ---

I have to ways to handwave away firearms built into the setting. THey almost always end with "A Wizard did it" or just simply "WIzards..." and I 'm being quite serious. 



--- Quote from: Haru on July 01, 2011, 11:37:23 PM ---As for magic, I have one thing to say at first: I hate wands.
Don't get me wrong, there are places where they fit in, but magical western just isn't it. The whole western setting is rough and unpolished, so the style of magic should reflect that. Singular abilities, for example a fireslinger who can... well, sling fire. A natural gun if you will, with the same power and accuracy a gun would have. He would even have to "load" his power, engulfing his hand in fire with his will, which (coincidently!) takes about the time someone else would need to draw a gun.

Let's look at a duel. A gunslinger against a fireslinger. Both draw back their coats, the first reveals his holster holding his gun, he puts his hand next to it in the typical close up gesture. The second one reveals that he does not have a holster, maybe to intimidate the opponent, because he knows what he has coming. He too holds his hand next to where his holster would be, a nervous twitch in his index finger. On the draw, the fireslinger quickly stretches his hand, engulfing it in flame, then thrusting it forwards to throw a bolt of fire at his opponent.

Or a bar fight, some guys have their guns out, the fireslinger has his hand ablaze, when the sheriff comes in and tell him to put it out (like he would otherwise tell someone to drop a gun).


--- End quote ---

I don't like wands either, they are not very good props. The only business(Non-dialogue actions) that I could think of for characterization was twirling one between the fingers. Plus, being so small and made of wood they are very fragile.

I will also say that I never thought of making Magic rough and unpolished like Old West. Thank you for pointing in that direction.

I also like that parlance of -Slinger to describe spellcasters. It has a nice ring to it.

That bar fight scenario also reminded of a key Western trope I completely forgot about but need to have: The Mexican Standoff(In the case of my world it's be the Serican Standoff)...


--- Quote from: Haru on July 01, 2011, 11:37:23 PM ---The whole spellbook, magic staff, whatever stereotype wizards stuff you have should probably not come up that often. That is "old world magic". There might still be some of those around, because a full blown sorcerer would make a great gang boss. Restricted in the old world, they can freely follow their dark desires in the new land.

--- End quote ---

I really that idea of a dicotomy of Old World versus Frontier because that's what the West was like. I never thought about that really. Thanks again.

I am updating certain things though because there are certain Old World Tropes that just don't make sense to me as being part of the setting and doesn't go with my vision of Wizards(for this setting).


--- Quote from: Haru on July 01, 2011, 11:37:23 PM ---Other kinds of magic could be less fight oriented. For example, I have the concept for a character called "First Aid Kid", You can guess his magical talent ;)

--- End quote ---

Although that's a neat idea, this is The West, sir. That first aid kit/Doctor's valise you carry comes with the Local universal cureall: The Hacksaw.... The local doctor goes, "What's a germ?"


--- Quote from: Haru on July 01, 2011, 11:37:23 PM ---At a whole, if you stay mainly in the western genre, magic should probably just partially replace certain iconic objects and only for some people, while those items are still around.

--- End quote ---

To paraphrase Branden Sanderson, "Magic doesn't exist in a Vacuum" Making it reflective of The OLd Western is one thing, the ripples Magic's presence makes on the proverbial pond is another.

ANd that's not even taking into consideration the presence of Non-Humans like Elves and Dwarves, who are not just Star Trek Aliens for this.


--- Quote from: Haru on July 01, 2011, 11:37:23 PM ---Native magic (if you have an equivalent of native americans) would probably be more like druids or shamans (totems, dancing, influencing plants and animals, shifting into an animalform, stuff like that), and some of the settlers might even be learning some of it or something similar, especially scouts or similar characters would profit from this. And it is a great source for some cultural conflict. Could be even more interesting, if they use bows but there are no guns.

--- End quote ---

Yet another thing I never considered...Native Americans. Can't have a Western without....Geronimo...*Dramatic Music Hit*(That pause and hit actually happened in Stagecoach. Nowadays it's hilarious. Check it out).

The whole Druidic Animal-Based magic for me is too on-the-nose and far too obvious a choice for what I have in mind. I already have 4 Magic sources...I guess I'll need one more for the Native American angle. Still not sure where to go with that.

Thanks for the thoughts Haru.

Nickeris86:
i tried doing a fantasy western a while back, in my setting magic was a solid substance that had to be forged to get the desired effect and combined to get the weirder things. its effects were based on its color with white and black being the rarest and most powerful. guns still exist but they had to have measured amounts of the magical substance in their bullets rather than gunpowder, and the guns were very hard and expensive to make so only a very very few had them and they tended to be marshals or very powerful bounty hunters/criminals. everyone else had swords and such and could have ones magical ones as well.

It was a fun idea but started getting a little to animeish for my tastes.

though i did enjoy the idea of swordslingers over gunslingers. i also had it so that people that used swords, particularly magic ones, were called Half Coats, because they had their dusters cut away on the side with their sword so the coat wouldn't get in the way.

as for the Native magic and the old world vs frontier i have some thoughts

read up on some native american myths their are plenty of horrible monsters and magic in them to help you build an idea for how to make your own native magic. For example, i read a legend a while back about skinwalkers that weren't evil monsters but powerful shamens who could turn into wolves through to protect their tribe.

also watch some old Clint Eastwood westerns, or other good westerns and think how could i do this with magic and swords rather than guns.

I think you would have to have focuses or some way for bounty hunters and marshals to cancel out someone else power easily otherwise bringing in someone who can call up fire at will would be impossible to take in alive.

Lanodantheon:

--- Quote from: Nickeris86 on July 03, 2011, 07:25:41 PM ---i tried doing a fantasy western a while back, in my setting magic was a solid substance that had to be forged to get the desired effect and combined to get the weirder things. its effects were based on its color with white and black being the rarest and most powerful. guns still exist but they had to have measured amounts of the magical substance in their bullets rather than gunpowder, and the guns were very hard and expensive to make so only a very very few had them and they tended to be marshals or very powerful bounty hunters/criminals. everyone else had swords and such and could have ones magical ones as well.

It was a fun idea but started getting a little to animeish for my tastes.


--- End quote ---

That doesn't sound very Animeish to me...but I haven't read samples of it in action. Plus, "Animeish" is a very vague descriptor to me given the range of Anime from Grave of The Fireflies to Ghost in The Shell to Excel Saga to (On the subject of Fantasy) Slayers.



--- Quote from: Nickeris86 on July 03, 2011, 07:25:41 PM ---
though i did enjoy the idea of swordslingers over gunslingers. i also had it so that people that used swords, particularly magic ones, were called Half Coats, because they had their dusters cut away on the side with their sword so the coat wouldn't get in the way.


--- End quote ---

Why cut off half the coat? ...it's a waste of a perfectly good coat. You wear dusters in the west because it protects from the elements and in the case of the Western, more often than not you're in the desert. Cutting off part of the coat would defeat the purpose of wearing it. I'm not an authority on swordsmanship in any capacity but what I've seen you grap the sheathe with one hand when you draw so the coat won't make much of a difference if's it's tailored correctly. But, that could be incorect.

But, that's a nitpick of a story you've obviously abandoned.   



--- Quote from: Nickeris86 on July 03, 2011, 07:25:41 PM ---

as for the Native magic and the old world vs frontier i have some thoughts

read up on some native american myths their are plenty of horrible monsters and magic in them to help you build an idea for how to make your own native magic. For example, i read a legend a while back about skinwalkers that weren't evil monsters but powerful shamens who could turn into wolves through to protect their tribe.


--- End quote ---

Oh yeah. Native American tribes have a rich mythology and history. Even just the history and the effects of smallpox and the anthropological origin of the Wendigo is facinating.  But...having the Native Americans(or NA Analogs) with Shape-changing powers, dances, lots of peyote and tons of stereotypes are....really obvious. I'm going my own way with things and doing the vanilla NAs with lots of stereotypes is not it at the moment. Though the idea of drawing on Soviet Westerns I've never seen is neat now that I think of it.... 



--- Quote from: Nickeris86 on July 03, 2011, 07:25:41 PM ---
also watch some old Clint Eastwood westerns, or other good westerns and think how could i do this with magic and swords rather than guns.

I think you would have to have focuses or some way for bounty hunters and marshals to cancel out someone else power easily otherwise bringing in someone who can call up fire at will would be impossible to take in alive.

--- End quote ---

Not a big Eastwood fan on my end. Sergio Leone (Who didn't speak English) once explained that he loved to work with Eastwood(who didn't speak Italian) because he only had 2 expressions, "Wearing his hat" and "Not wearing his hat" . I'm in a unique position of liking a genre or at least the ideas surrounding a genre without liking very many instances of that genre.

That is a good point about the defenses, though. I will keep that in mind.

Also, not just for Marshals. If you want to get technical, I also need defensive Foci and stuff for Rustlers, Cutthroats, Murderers, Bounty Hunters, Desperados, Mugs, Pugs, Thugs, Nitwits, Half-Wits, Dimwits, Vipers, Snipers, Con Men, Indian Agents, Mexican Bandits, Muggers, B*******, Bushwackers, Hornswagglers, Horse Thieves, **** ****s, Train Robbers, Bank Robbers, A** Kickers, S*** Kickers and Methodists! .....

OZ:
There are of course a lot of ways to go with this. As has been mentioned before there are several steampunk novels that mix Westerns with magic. I don't know of any books off the top of my head that mix high fantasy with Westerns. One way to have guns in your story (I personally have trouble picturing a Western without some type of guns.) is to limit the effectiveness of the guns. Maybe put them back in a cap and ball era so that you got your six shots but there is no way you would have time to reload. Maybe make them all muzzle loaders. Maybe make gunpowder much more rare and expensive so it is only used sparingly. Maybe make the only bullets that would be magically relevant, big enough that pistols would only have two or three shots instead of six or twelve. You could use something similar to what L E Modesitt does in his Recluse novels where magicians can easily ignite gunpowder so anyone that is going up against a wizard tends to avoid it unless they have some means of shielding it from the wizard's power. It's not very helpful to have all the bullets in your gun or in your belt or pocket go off at once.

Although it's not the old West, if you want a story that combines guns, magic or advanced science ( the lines are a bit blurred ), and frontier like settings, I would recommend Modesitt's Corean Chronicles series.

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