Author Topic: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)  (Read 25150 times)

Offline Rasins

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2011, 05:48:47 PM »
The hole is the spell Victor was using to kill with.  It was mentioned that it was the same as or similar (though less powerful) than the one the RC was using at CI.  

That being the case, it's not a sure thing, but reasonable to guess that Victor had been taught it by someone from the RC to test it out (it hadn't been used for 1000 years according to Odin and magic changes about every 300 years according to Bob).  I'd bet they taught him the curse, and the means to make the 3eye.  And if what you said is true, then in about oh, 20 years, the WC would have it's hands full of potential wizards/warlocks.  And if you remember Ortega said that the War was started about 20 years early.

We also don't know what, if any, plans the RC had for the iterim, for weakening the WC.  

Also, remember that Molly was about 17 before her powers showed up.  Check the Timeline.

THAT timing fits right into the RC's plan for war with the WC.  They are overrun with Warlocks, and active war breaks out.

[edited for HER powers, not HE powers.]


« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 05:59:41 PM by Rasins »
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Offline ebliss1

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2011, 05:56:11 PM »
OK - that bit of logic is really good. I like it and it dovetails very nicely with what we've seen. Good work!
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Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2011, 12:08:00 AM »
who wants to bet some of those warlocks found during the war, were due to someone sliping them third eye.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2011, 02:10:16 AM »
Here's another thought. I'm going in the opposite direction of the "lets make a lot of warlocks to spread the White Council too thin" theory). We know that the White Court came up with a plan to rid the world of wizards by getting rid of females who had some talent. The reduction of the available breeding-stock and the long time required to get a wizard from "lucky embryo who has the spark of magic" to "Dresden-Level Battleship on Legs" is exceedingly long.

It would appear to be of the order of twenty to thirty years, and to beings with ages measured in millennia, as many of the candidate plotters are, I am not sure that would feel like an overly long investment.

I like the rest of your notion rather a lot.  It also gives an additional layer of resonance to my notion that one of the things WN is doing as a novel is echoing SF with Helen Beckitt in the Harry part and Harry playing Morgan, is they're both closely related parts of the same plan.
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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2011, 02:12:35 AM »
But remember, in Storm Front, the Wardens and the White Council were not spread thin.

I thought from what Eb says in PG that the Council were being spread unfeasibly thin in finding new wizards by global population growth well before the time period of the books.
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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2011, 02:33:11 AM »
Taking, as an axiom of this debate, a position which I do not actually believe, to wit, that there is a Black Council:

The Black Councils goals would have to be to place its members at the top of the magical hierarchy specifically of magically endowed human beings while at the same time organizing the weakening of the other supernatural powers to facilitate a smooth transition during the takeover.

Why ?  What do we have to demonstrate they want to conquer and use rather than to destroy ?

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It is clear that while Victor Sells is not in the same league power wise as Dresden, He is clearly well trained

I disagree with that entirely.  It seems very clear from his fight with Harry that he's an idiot who's been handed a bunch of odd and powerful recipes but has no real handle on magic  as a larger thing, no systemic or strategic understanding.   He's disposable.

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Finally, if discovered by the White Council see if more focus can be placed upon Wizard Dresden in order to recruit him into the organization. He was under the Doom of Damocles and if under suspicion may run right into the Black Councils arms for safety.

I can believe that pushing Harry to go dark is part of the point, even if not recruiting him directly.  The flip he nearly has outside Sells' house, before the mysterious female voice brings him back to himself, seems to me like it very well might be the whole point of the operation.

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Dresden was discovered to be far more resilient than suspected. Rather than running from White Council justice Dresden stayed to uncover the Sells operation killing Sells, capturing his associates, and destroying the production center for Third Eye. Worse, he clears himself of any wrongdoing and of the Doom meaning it will be more difficult to place blame on him in future events.

I would say that considering what anyone with a White Council agent could have found from the public record about Harry, thinking he would fold easily here is way too dumb for any plausible Black Council.

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Clearly the entire operation was ruined and almost a complete loss. None of the objectives were achieved. Due to the interference of Dresden; Third Eye could not be either reproduced or it was deemed a security risk as its production after Dresden proved he was innocent would have let on that Sells had compatriots.

They did however get data on how well the curse worked, which may well have been useful for designing the implementation in Changes.
 

Marcone survived and was able to consolidate power in Chicago with greater understanding of the supernatural.

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The White Council is proven to be completely blind to the goings on within its own community except when the most gross of actions are taken and even then they turn on their own before looking to other culprits.

I disagree here too.  The Council investigation in SF focuses most attention on the only plausible candidate. To have reason to look elsewhere they would need to have much information they do not and it is not plausible to expect them to have.
 
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Gain allies and operatives within the federal government utilizing supernatural favors to influence members

Really ? Considering the extent to which those FBI agents' self-control is being undermined by the belts, how long can we envision them remaining useful ?  The belts destroy the users in pretty short order.

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Eliminating Marcone is also a priority in that it opens Chicago for the Black Council Agent Bianca St. Claire

You are positing a plan where at this point they want to keep her alive and replace Marcone ?
 
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Evidently the Hexenwolfen sociopathic effects are also accelerated by the panic of discovery by Dresden

Not evident at all to me.  The belt Harry wears comes very near corrupting him in a matter of minutes.

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However there are several positives, one is that again there are no direct ties to the Black Council, second Marcone loses his supernatural enforcers meaning that he would have to start from scratch.

What supernatural enforcers ?

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Starting a large scale conflict between The Red Court of Vampires and the White Council is clearly the most important goal of the events. The Black Council has had prior dealings with Harry Dresden; they know what makes him tick and specifically manufacture an event that will cause him to react. Bianca St. Claire is clearly misled on how Dresden will react to the situation. A child is threatened, a woman is threatened, his friends are threatened, and finally his beloved is threatened. He is forced to be there by his duty to the White Council, the Red Court is already looking for war. These are all specifically tailored to make him react violently and (in the opinion of the White and Black Councils) excessively.

I don't really buy this one either.

We are looking at a Council which has, for centuries, held not starting a war with the Red Court more important than protecting any individual Red victim.  Bianca misread Harry, but I don't think that takes being misled; it takes Harry in this particular situation being wildly atypical for a Council member.  Nor is he forced to be at the party by his duty; he makes that clear when first invited.

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If Dresden surprises everyone by allowing these actions to take place then it only underscores the weakness of the White Council to a predatory species that would merely find some other pretext to act on that weakness.

No, it wouldn't.  The Council have already been not interfering with the Red Court for centuries.  Continuing to not interfere says nothing about weakness.  The Council don't react to Red Court provocation because they basically have no need to; we see in Changes that when they finally do bestir themselves, the Red Court survive a matter of days.  The Council are in the position of a martial arts master walking down the street refusing to be provoked by the taunts of a small child into killing that small child with one blow.
 
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Dresden being killed in the meantime is all the better as he has interfered in several operations killing in chronological order agents Kravos, FBI Hexenwolfen, and Sells disrupting each of their operations.

This whole analysis is excluding his value as an Outsiderbane.
 
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Not much Dresden reacted exactly planned; war between the two major groups is accomplished. The loss of Bianca St. Claire while unfortunate is not critical.

I would say it's absolutely critical.  She is another sacrifice; her death is a casus belli.
 
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The Red Court’s first strike against Senior Council Member Simon Petrovich and Archangel is clearly done with advanced intelligence from Black Council agents.

If you believe that Simon is dead, and that the point of that operation was not to give him a deniable escape, perhaps.

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The Attack on Archangel is a message from the Red Court to the White Council that the war is so serious that the Red Court kills the White Council member that they trust the most first.

Alternatively, given that we know Ortega planned it, it's the "no war now" faction of the Reds' best hope to end the war.  Trade Simon for Bianca, an eye for an eye, payment in kind under the Accords, and the justification for the war goes away.  Otherwise there would not be a peace offer at the Council meeting in SK.
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2011, 02:34:49 AM »
That being the case, it's not a sure thing, but reasonable to guess that Victor had been taught it by someone from the RC to test it out (it hadn't been used for 1000 years according to Odin and magic changes about every 300 years according to Bob

Where are you getting that one from ? That sounds like you're reading something as meaning there's a major change periodically rather than slow drift over time, and I'm not recalling anything in the text to suggest that.
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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2011, 02:35:58 AM »
who wants to bet some of those warlocks found during the war, were due to someone sliping them third eye.

I'll bet against.  We have no evidence at all that the drug does anything other than opens the Sight.  We know the Council hunts warlocks all the time, we know the number is long-term increasing because the population of the planet is increasing.
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Offline Eleyctra

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2011, 03:14:58 AM »
Where are you getting that one from ? That sounds like you're reading something as meaning there's a major change periodically rather than slow drift over time, and I'm not recalling anything in the text to suggest that.

There's a WOJ on that. (I tried again, and gosh I have the worst trouble finding the ones I need..)
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2011, 04:05:57 AM »
Where are you getting that one from ? That sounds like you're reading something as meaning there's a major change periodically rather than slow drift over time, and I'm not recalling anything in the text to suggest that.

Sorry, it wasn't Bob.  It was in a WoJ from DragonCon .
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Offline Phariah

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2011, 05:28:23 AM »
well Harry says it in one book that Bob keeps track of the ever changing metaphysics of magic for him. no specific timeline though.
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Offline Zolt

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2011, 10:06:45 AM »
I usually hesitate to jump into any thread the Neurovore has been in.  Bob-like memory combined with a predator's instinct for pointing out contradictions are though to go up against. Also, the use of pronouns becomes a death trap.

That being the case, it's not a sure thing, but reasonable to guess that Victor had been taught it by someone from the RC to test it out (it hadn't been used for 1000 years according to Odin and magic changes about every 300 years according to Bob).  I'd bet they taught him the curse, and the means to make the 3eye.  And if what you said is true, then in about oh, 20 years, the WC would have it's hands full of potential wizards/warlocks.  And if you remember Ortega said that the War was started about 20 years early.

Actually Vadderung's comment meant that this level of power hasn't been used for 1000 years, I don't think he meant that particular spell or ritual.

The WOJ about magic changing every 300 years or so didn't necessarily mean big, fundamental changes - Jim was originally talking about the side effects of magic, such as its effect on technology when he made that comment. Even so, a skilled wizard could probably make his calculations and compensate for any deviations in the magic field - I seem to recall Harry and Bob doing something vaguely like that at some point.      

I can believe that pushing Harry to go dark is part of the point, even if not recruiting him directly.  The flip he nearly has outside Sells' house, before the mysterious female voice brings him back to himself, seems to me like it very well might be the whole point of the operation.
I try to avoid any theory that assumes that Harry is the center of creation (even though he actually is). Both Nick and Cowl have tried to turn him, and shown an interest in keeping him alive when they had the opportunity to kill him, but they have also made it clear that his death is perfectly acceptable to them, and that he is kind of secondary in their respective plans.

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They did however get data on how well the curse worked, which may well have been useful for designing the implementation in Changes.
Point there: Making people's heart explode for no apparent reason usually draws wardens pretty quickly. Using a fuse to experiment was a good decision.

My question however is: Who exactly did the experiment benefit? It wasn't the vampires, or at least Bianca was not involved. That curse seems to be something that the vampires have used in the past - Martin knew about this ritual even before he started his whole double-agent thing. This isn't even a theory at this point, but *someone* wanted to experiment with , and get more data on that spell, then 12 years later *someone* manipulated the vamps to use the same curse, and make it massively overkill.

The after said spell goes off - on a different target than intended - Night of Bad dreams, which looks very much like an omen of Bad Things to come. My pet theory is that it's the ritual itself, not the death of the Red Court, that triggered the Bad Dreams, and whatever is coming next. And *someone* wanted that to happen.

[About Bianca's death]
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I would say it's absolutely critical.  She is another sacrifice; her death is a casus belli.
As a principle, I hate omniscient villains (and I suspect that the Neurovore might be one, but that's another story). Look at the sequence of event that led to Bianca's death
- Lea manages to steal Amorrachius - purely opportunity based, due to Harry getting hit in the head and making some very bad decisions. This happens at the last minute before the party.
- Susan decides to show up at Bianca's party.
- Harry blows a fuse, throws the accords and everything else out the window and goes up against Bianca.
- He actually succeeds in killing her, even though he was captive , deprived of most of his power, and locked in a room with a bloodthirsty half-vamp.

Now, we know that players like Mab, Uriel or Vadderung have incredible foresight. But even so, Harry manage to surprise Mab a couple times. Predicting this precise chain of event seems far-fetched, even for players in their weight class. The only character we know of who had a shot at that is Rashid, and he cheats.

What I think is that the Red Court - or at least a faction of it, was indeed planning to start a war with the WC. Harry surprised them by starting that war earlier than they'd planned, and they just went with it. Whether by doing this he doomed the White Council or put a big wrench in the bad guys plan, only time will tell. Or Jim. But I suspect that Jim has some manner of control over time, the month of July feels entirely too long this year.  
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 10:08:48 AM by Zolt »
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Offline Zolt

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2011, 10:25:42 AM »
I'll bet against.  We have no evidence at all that the drug does anything other than opens the Sight.  We know the Council hunts warlocks all the time, we know the number is long-term increasing because the population of the planet is increasing.

Indeed the Third-Eye has nothing to do with the increasing number of warlocks. But since I doubt Sells invented it himself so whoever gave him the formula must have had something in mind. I have a few ideas what that might be:

- Having lots of people see the "unseen" world wight help cause general panic, and weaken the barrier between both world (as a preparation for the events of Grave Peril).

- Having "mundane" underlings with the Sight can be exceedingly useful. They can help watch for supernatural menaces, or find people with a potential for magic in the general population. The only problem is that said underlings would go insane all too quickly. 

- Maybe that's why they decided to distribute Third Eye to the general population. From a large pool of addicts, they can pick those who are most resilient and retain some sanity. Furthermore, these can be controlled through their addiction.   



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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2011, 03:37:07 PM »
Sorry, it wasn't Bob.  It was in a WoJ from DragonCon .

OK, thank you.  I'd note that "the side-effects of magic change" does not seem to say that anything else about magic changes.
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Re: Origins of the Three Eye drug. (Changes spoiler)
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2011, 03:48:05 PM »
I usually hesitate to jump into any thread the Neurovore has been in.  Bob-like memory combined with a predator's instinct for pointing out contradictions are though to go up against. Also, the use of pronouns becomes a death trap.

If I ever publish any fiction of my own, you've just made the go-to list for blurbs...

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I try to avoid any theory that assumes that Harry is the center of creation (even though he actually is).

I don't think he's the centre of creation, but I think he is, without having figured it out enough to really be aware, at manhattan project levels of important in supernatural politics.


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My question however is: Who exactly did the experiment benefit? It wasn't the vampires, or at least Bianca was not involved. That curse seems to be something that the vampires have used in the past - Martin knew about this ritual even before he started his whole double-agent thing. This isn't even a theory at this point, but *someone* wanted to experiment with , and get more data on that spell, then 12 years later *someone* manipulated the vamps to use the same curse, and make it massively overkill.

I tend to include that in the same direction as the someone who persuaded the vampires that the attack they carried out in DB was a good idea because they were going to get necrogod support, deliberately threw the Darkhallow, and left the Reds to take a major hit from Faerie in PG, myself.

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[About Bianca's death]As a principle, I hate omniscient villains (and I suspect that the Neurovore might be one, but that's another story).

Hardly; I'm really quite nice when you get to know me.

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- Lea manages to steal Amorrachius - purely opportunity based, due to Harry getting hit in the head and making some very bad decisions. This happens at the last minute before the party.

The Nightmare is Mavra's sock-puppet.   I think; throwing Harry against a tombstone to crack his skull so Lea has to save him is predictable; telling Michael to put the sword down or you crush his wife has a predictable result;  injure Charity so that Michael picks her up before the sword is predictable; harry taking the sword and Lea then taking a grab at it is predictable given Harry's sense of duty and Faerie obligations.  That whole scene reads to me as stage-managed in real time.

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- Susan decides to show up at Bianca's party.

Predictable if you know Susan at all.

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- Harry blows a fuse, throws the accords and everything else out the window and goes up against Bianca.

Predictable if you know Harry at all.

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- He actually succeeds in killing her, even though he was captive , deprived of most of his power, and locked in a room with a bloodthirsty half-vamp.

Partly plausibly predictable and partly plausibly stage-managed in realtime.

I'm not saying that all of this chain of events was set up in advance (though I'd believe it of Francis Crawford of Lymond, and Mab and Uriel are supposed to be well beyond even the extremes of human capacity there.)  I am saying the plan was outlined in advance and events visibly managed as they occurred to keep it on track.

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What I think is that the Red Court - or at least a faction of it, was indeed planning to start a war with the WC. Harry surprised them by starting that war earlier than they'd planned, and they just went with it. Whether by doing this he doomed the White Council or put a big wrench in the bad guys plan, only time will tell.

I am more inclined to believe he served the bad guys' plan to a T, there.
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