Is anyone else annoyed by Physical Immunity?

[EdgeOfDreams]

Would you allow for total immunities to other things? How about Social and Mental tracks? How about an immunity to Physical Blocks or Maneuvers(call it "Unstoppable Force" or whatever)? How about an immunity to assessments("Null Presence")? Or Declarations(Reality Warper)?

If any of those would be considered inappropriate, why do Attacks get a pass? What makes them special?

I think a huge part of the answer to this line of reasoning is The Catch.  By the rules, you can't have no catch at all.  And to me, at least, a catch so rare as to never affect the plot (e.g. "can only be harmed by the Thimble of Zeus, which no one has ever heard of and was lost 1000 years ago") is the same as not having a catch.

I feel that Physical Immunity serves a totally different purpose than the Toughness/Recovery line of powers.  PI should be used ONLY as a plot device to force the opponent to find the catch.

Also, Immunity to physical attacks is heavily supported by lore, fairy tales, myths, and the DF novels, whereas other sorts of immunity (e.g. to mental attacks) are far less common and less iconic.

[EldritchFire]

As a note, could the people here cut back on the insults? I'm neither an idiot nor a munchkin. So, thanks in advance, would be nice.

Note, however, that I'm not asking here whether or not you can beat someone with PI. I'm focusing on whether it's an appropriate ability.

Would you allow for total immunities to other things? How about Social and Mental tracks? How about an immunity to Physical Blocks or Maneuvers(call it "Unstoppable Force" or whatever)? How about an immunity to assessments("Null Presence")? Or Declarations(Reality Warper)?

If any of those would be considered inappropriate, why do Attacks get a pass? What makes them special?

I'm no expert, but I think Physical Immunity is there for very specific cases. The loup-garu who is immune to most physical harm except for inherited silver, or a flame archon who's immune to fire.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Physical Immunity. I'd much rather have a collection of Recovery & Toughness. This is both from a player and GM standpoint. If a character has Physical Immunity and the one thing they aren't immune to shows up, it seems to be a cheap shot at that character. I know it's not, it's there to challenge them...but still, it's the feeling rather than the fact.

With Toughness & Recovery powers, it's not that big a deal until the fight has been going on for a while. Those extra stress boxes and consequences look mighty good when you only have 2 stress boxes left...and you can't use them. At that point, the rest of the party is beaten up as much as you are, so the feeling that you were singled out is less.

Just my [-2].

-EF

[zenten]

I agree that it's probably under costed.  Would 12 Refresh be better?

[paul_Harkonen]

I disagree.

I think that DFRPG is actually pretty hard to break.

Also, just because it isn't a crunchy system doesn't mean that mechanical problems aren't problems. Mythic Toughness + Mythic Recovery is inferior in (very nearly) every possible way to Physical Immunity. That's not a good thing.

PS: I'm pretty sure that forcing someone to concede is literally impossible. It's a player action, not a character one.

Given the number of threads on here about X way to break the system, I think you aren't trying hard enough.  But that is neither here nor there.

I'm not convinced it actually is a mechanical problem, and mythic toughness + mythic recovery is a completely different power and mentality (flavor wise) than physical immunity.  They let you do different things.  Toughness allows you to take a beating, Recovery allows you to heal quickly (along with not needing food and being able to run\fight\whatever indefinitely) and physical immunity means you don't take damage at all.  Unless you are taking them for a specific character reason, you're right, physical immunity probably provides your character with more protection than two mythic toughness powers, but that doesn't mean there is a mechanical problem.  It also doesn't mean you can't, (or even that you shouldn't) take the toughness + recovery track if that is the flavor you want to have for your character.

As to forcing them to concede, I'm pretty sure that is well within the realm of a valid invoke\compel.  Characters, NPCs and PCs can be compelled to hide, to run, to investigate, to fight, to trip, and do pretty much everything else.  Why couldn't they be compelled to concede?  Admittedly as GM I would be somewhat cautious about what kinds of aspects can be used to make that kind of compel, but mechanically that's perfectly legitimate, and pretty much the whole point of the GM (in the context of conflicts) is to adjudicate what compels\invokes are reasonable.

Finally, being called a munchkin isn't an insult.  What you appear to be considering is how you can maximize in game effects from a mechanical standpoint without regard to flavor or story.  That is pretty much the definition of power gaming\munchkifying.  Does that make it bad?  no.  But that is pretty much what we are discussing here.

[sinker]

Let's say I have a Shapeshifter villain, who has Modular Abilities. Why would he ever assume any other Toughness-based power other than Physical Immunity for the same cost, unless explicitly forbidden? And - if I must explicitly forbid him from assuming it, doesn't it imply it's too good?

You're letting the mechanics get in the way of your story and the characters in it. Before taking the power does the villain think "Hmm, how much toughness can I get for my 8 refresh? Well, since I can become physically immune, I must." No, he's simply doing what he does for the reasons he does them. He is a person. People are flawed. They do not always do the best thing every time.

In addition what is saying he can. Just because he has the refresh to take physical immunity does not mean he has the right to. A pure mortal at submerged level has the refresh to take physical immunity, what's stopping them? They may have reasons other than simple refresh that prevent them from reaching that level of toughness, and that doesn't mean that they couldn't use that same refresh (or less if you like) for a greater-than-mythic toughness.

Finally I think that the whole concept of villain refresh is just silly. What does it matter how much refresh he spends? Or how much any of his abilities cost? It may be a decent way to gauge what kind of a challenge the villain will be but is 41 refresh really that big of a difference from 40? If he spends a few extra points (or has a better-than-mythic toughness for only 6 refresh) will it really change how he works or what he does? When it comes down to it I rarely flesh out my villains that much. I have a story concept and they do that in whatever way that it presents whatever challenge I'm trying to accomplish. They have enough FATE points to make the story interesting when I want, and they run out when I want them to be at the end of their resources. I've even adjusted villains mid-conflict before and my players had no idea. EDIT: Of course I should note that this requires a great deal of trust between players and GM, but I'm lucky enough to have that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no good reason whatsoever why the rule book (in whatever capacity) should be getting in the way of the story you want to tell. Tell the story that you want, and if Physical immunity doesn't fit into it then don't try to shoehorn it in, just because you feel like you must. When it does fit then relish it, enjoy the drama that it creates when it is unique and fun.

[Sanctaphrax]

@BumblingBear: I don't think there's an overwhelming majority either way, actually. Otherwise, you're right. But I don't think that this is the thread for that.

@paul_Harkonen: I'd appreciate a PM detailing ways to break the system. I've only seen one way, and even it isn't supremely impressive. Which makes DFRPG harder to break than any other game I've played, so far as I can see.

Anyway, characters cannot concede. Players can concede. It's a narrative action. Therefore it cannot be compelled, since players can't be compelled. If you invoke for effect in such a way as to make a character lose a fight or surrender, then that's not a concession.

@EdgeOfDreams: I mostly agree, although I'd tack on a secondary use of "logical necessity." You can't burn something made out of fire, etc. The problem is that Physical Immunity does Toughness's job better than Toughness does.

@zenten: I think you're on the right track. However, I don't think that any cost would really solve the problem. I think you'd have to use a different Catch system from normal Toughness, to reflect the fact that Catches are more important for full immunity.

@sinker: Just because a problem is easily ignored doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.

[sinker]

@sinker: Just because a problem is easily ignored doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.

Means it isn't valid to one's personal existence, so effectively it isn't a problem to one who does not perceive it as such.

But that wasn't the only point that I had. Taer was saying if I have 8 refresh why would I buy anything else, and I was answering with "Narrative." Your story should be indicating what you should do, not your refresh level.

In fact based on my previous statement the refresh level is completely irrelevant, but I know that's a personal view.

[Bruce Coulson]

The 'unstoppable' monster is a part of the general mythology that Dresden (and most fantasy) draws from.  At least. the monster who is unstoppable in terms of direct physical force; the hero generally has to find some weakness, or find another way to defeat the monster.  Which is represented by the concept of Physical Immunity and the Catch; find the Catch, and suddenly the monster folds like a cheap suitcase.  In the case of Ogres, a cold iron spear-head thrown with Air or Spirit propulsion will serious crimp their style.

I could see have immunity to Mental or Social stress in some cases; although it would probably be a one-off monster.

[Haru]

Does anyone other than me find this power largely inappropriate in the game?

For example, let's say I'm designing some kind of a BBEG. I want for him to be extremely badass, tougher than even Mythic Toughness. Because of God-mode, there just isn't any place for designing any other super-Toughness powers. Why even bother? God-mode is available. I can't ever have a Toughness power cost more than -7 Refresh because -8 is invulnerable.

To every Toughness power there is a catch, especially for Physical Immunity. In the case of a BBEG it might be the one thing that is able to kill or disable him, and that is ok inside of a story, as long as the players have an interesting way to get it. The story is going to become less centred around fighting the BBEG and more centred around the quest for finding that one thing that can defeat him. Or the PCs can only foil BBEGs plans, but he lives to fight another day. After all, that is all Harry is able to do with Nicodemus so far.

It's also placed in some highly unsatisfying places in the book. For example, Ogres have Physical Immunity to magic. I mean, does that seriously mean that an Ogre could basically walk into a meeting of the entire White Council and the thousand or so wizards could unload enough magic to level a city and he'd just shrug it off? GM Fiat here is not really a satisfying solution.

Sure - I can get that Ogres are very tough against magic. But they're also nowhere near heavyweights, they shouldn't get to laugh in the face of the entire Council if they unleash their full power.

If they are throwing their magic directly at the ogre, then yes, he is going to smash his way through them. But as others pointed out, wizards have lots of different ways to use their magic other than point and shoot.

Similarly, some other creatures I don't think deserve Physical Immunity. Sure, the Loup-Garou is badass. Sure, it could rip apart an entire police department. So, can it survive a nuke? Ten? Fifty? The full might of Queen Mab if she doesn't use some sort of a Catch-satisfying ability?

Yes, it could. And it is not completely immune to anything, it can be hurt, even killed by inherited silver, it's catch. Queen Mab would be able to bind it, as would possibly a nuke if it buried it under a few thousand tons of dirt, but it would not be killed outright. And don't forget, a Loup-Garou is only a Loup-Garou for 3 days of a month, so if you want to do something to it, there is plenty of time to do it.

Again, GM Fiat is not a good solution. As a GM, I can already do anything. The rules in the book are there to tell me what I should and should not do.

So, opinions on this? If you share my opinion, did anyone come up with some sort of a custom power for other high-end Toughness abilities?

As I said, it all comes down to the catch, and that is something that the book tells you. I don't really see the need for any other high end toughness powers. Anything other than mystic toughness would make you immune to battlefield weapons, so putting up a physical immunity at that point is more than justified.

If a player absolutely wants to take up physical immunity, make him pay (by compelling him on his catch). I had a shadowrun player once, that wanted to take an allergy to gold on his character to gather up some more creation points. Too bad, that most cyberware connectors are made of gold...
What I'm trying to say is: if a character wants to have physical immunity, there is going to be something else, that is going to get him. Maybe his catch, maybe the BBEG goes after his loved ones instead of him. The character is going to think twice before storming the castle, if his friends are in the line of fire.

And for the most part, if I read it correctly, Physical Immunity is used to get Immunity for 1 condition instead of all but 1 thing, which makes it far less powerful, but gives a nice touch to a creature. A fire elemental's immunity to fire for example. Or - as you pointed out - an ogres immunity to mortal magic. And as far as I understood that, only the older and tougher ogres would develop the strength to shake of mortal magic like it was nothing.

[devonapple]

Don't forget that another way to suss out a +0 Catch is simply to have enough exposure to a given creature. If there's a monster or villain with a +0 Catch, and it NEEDS to be destroyed, the players can play a "long con" and manipulate things so they can get in with the villain and hopefully learn what particular thing is his Catch. Then, use all that first-hand experience to really set him up thoroughly before taking him down. Not to continually flog canon examples, but Harry

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eventually figured out Nicodemus' "Catch" because he survived direct contact with him multiple times and started figuring out what that item really might have meant

.

But, at the end of the day, a GM is putting a Physically Immune character into a game for one of several potential reasons, including:

1) It's in [Our World/Your Story/my mythology book/my imagination] and I thought it would be cool.
2) It's in [Our World/Your Story/my mythology book/my imagination] and I thought it would make sense for this story or creature.
3) I want the players to find a non-combat way to resolve this conflict.
4) I want the players to think more creatively about combat tactics in this conflict.
5) I want to show my players what a badass this villain is.

And #5 is the motivation - the Baron Von Badass trope - that's a potential problem, especially if the GM thinks it's motivation #1.

Edit: Physical Immunity is ultimately a puzzle to be solved or a "Wrong Way" sign. It's not meant to be a "You Lose" sign. And - quite frankly - that's for PCs as well as NPCs.

[tetrasodium]

Shagnasty(well, another Shagnasty than the one we've seen) died to a nuclear bomb. This implies there is a level of force that can defeat him.

I'm not able to go searching for the exact quote/line right now, but I think

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...Morgan...

only said he was pretty sure he probably killed it or hurt it enugh to make it crawl in a hole/go away for a while and lick its wounds. lose interest in chasing him down

[Lanir]

Umm... sounding a bit like dead horse beating here.

It kind of looked like the original poster was a bit frustrated or uncertain about this power and wanted to know how to use it effectively in a game. Later comments have made me uncertain that was the correct way to read this. Taer, do you mind clearing this up? Just posting opinions that disagree with each other isn't particularly useful. If you're actually still looking for how to use this, then I think you'll find some interesting ideas have been posted that could give you new angles to think about.

The majority opinion here seems to be that this can be an effective power to use, but it definitely is one you have to consider. You don't just want to throw it out there without giving serious thought to how your group can handle it (which includes them finding out they can handle it). Again, the majority seems to think that it boils down to how broad a category the character is immune to, what their catch is, and how your players can manage to discover said catch. Managing the catch is managing the power.

So... Where do you want to go from here? Still have questions?

[Belial666]

A point that has not been adressed; Physical Immunity is not absolute. There are at least 8 ways to bypass it and still directly harm the target;

1) Magical mental attacks.
2) Magical spiritual attacks.
3) Domination.
4) Incite Emotion.
5) Narcotic Saliva.
6) All Creatures Are Equal Before God.
7) Sacred Guardian.
Righteousness/Holy Touch


Wizards can do 1 and 2.
Vampires can do at least one of 3, 4 or 5.
People of Faith can usually do one of 6, 7 or 8.
Sidhe can do 1, 2 and occasionally 3 or 4.
Faerie Knights can do 1 and 2.
Greater Demons can do 1 and 2 and occasionally 3 or 4.

So, by the time someone has physical immunity, he is going to fight against enemies that can ignore his immunity at least some of the time. Physical Immunity only ensures your protection from mooks that have no supernatural powers to ignore it and could not find your catch.

[Sanctaphrax]

Bloody Sacred Guardian. Hate that power.

Anyway, I think that Holy Touch doesn't deserve a place on that list.

Standard disclaimer about mental/spiritual magic.

Also, it's called Addictive Saliva.

And Addictive Saliva doesn't really inflict harm. It's just a super-aspect.

Otherwise looks good.

[Belial666]

And Addictive Saliva doesn't really inflict harm. It's just a super-aspect.

Under the "narcotic saliva" ability of the Addictive Saliva power, it says you can also use it as an attack to inflict mental stress. 

Holy Touch doesn't deserve a place on that list.

Well, Holy Touch can satisfy the catch of some creatures and even if not, it is still weapon 1 against creatures offensive to your faith.