Thaumaturgy Isn't Fun

[BumblingBear]

I'm not trying to be argumentative or negative here but I'm honestly wondering what you're looking for Tallyrand? It seems most of us are satisfied with glossing over the small stuff (getting small rituals out of the way quickly and with minimum effort) and going epic for the big stuff (making entire adventures around a ritual), so what are you looking for? Help us understand where you are at so that maybe we can provide a helpful solution.

Another question is how often are you (or your players) using thaumaturgy to solve a problem? Over the last five or six sessions with my group I think we might have used it five times. It was never more than a few minutes of any given session.

It seems like a discussion born of frustration to me.

I don't think there is much of a point other than the OP asking what everyone else thought about it.

I tend to agree with the OP, which is why I don't encourage a lot of thaumatergy in my games.

I tip my hat to Evil Hat for the rules in general, but thaumatergy is really more of a narrative device so I tend to treat it that way.

For really hard rituals, I think in the future I will make the caster roll 1 fate die.  If it lands on -, they failed.  If it lands on +, they succeed.  If they get a blank, they roll again.  For each time they roll, the stakes go up - as in, backlash and such if the spell fails.

I may implement this as a house rule in a week or two.

[sinker]

Personally that seems like a bit of an irritating idea from a players perspective. With a system like that no matter what you do or how hard you prepare it's still entirely up to random chance and 30% odds is pretty terrible.

[UmbraLux]

Werewolf's Blood and Angel's Tears are all fine examples of ritual materials if you're trying to pull off some very unusual spell, but most of the time everything you need can be found at a hardware store.

That's why easy spells are "off camera".  No point in doing more than making a single role and moving on. 

As often as Harry talks about using Mouse Scampers there's someone using store bought glitter or silly putty.  Also, even if we went with a mandate that ritual ingredients have to be WEIRD that would present with it's own problem.  Now, every time my group wants to do a ritual the GM has to write an entire side adventure specifically for the Wizard.  This also seems to be to be a not fun solution.

Specifically for the wizard?  If it's not important enough to involve the whole group, it probably should be off camera. 

[BumblingBear]

Personally that seems like a bit of an irritating idea from a players perspective. With a system like that no matter what you do or how hard you prepare it's still entirely up to random chance and 30% odds is pretty terrible.

Perhaps so, but as a player, I like a bit of a challenge.  Thing seem cheap if there is no chance of failure.

That said, by "hard", I mean a really difficult thaumatergy spell.

Harry was able to

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summon and contain the Erlking,

but just barely.

He was surprised and elated that it actually worked.

I do not think that a 10 refresh wizard should be able to do what Harry was barely able to do if just given enough time.  That seems cheap.

By the current rules, a character with thaumatergy could do just about anything as long as they had a decent lore and enough time. 

I don't like that.

I think that once character get up into extremely powerful spells

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like dropping a satellite on someone

, there should be an element of risk involved and the potential to fail.

Just my .02.

[UmbraLux]

By the current rules, a character with thaumatergy could do just about anything as long as they had a decent lore and enough time. 

FATE doesn't simulate "doing something".  It's far more about building a narrative.  As narratives differ from one group to another, so will how the mechanics are applied. 

What I'm trying to say is, you're absolutely right. 

From a purely mechanical point of view thaumaturgy could simply be collecting thirty different types of nails, calling each an aspect, and casting a 60+ shift "Nail Victim to the Ground" spell.  Some groups might even accept that.  Personally, it sounds boring.  Much more fun to craft an interesting narrative of gathering rare and unusual ingredients.

Thaumaturgy, and FATE, is what you make of it.

[Belial666]

By the current rules, a character with thaumatergy could do just about anything as long as they had a decent lore and enough time. 

Actually, that's not true. Several things limit the power of thumaturgy;

1) Thaumaturgy spells are fairly costly. To reliably kill someone, you need 30 shifts of power. Trapping the Erlking should be comparable, if not more difficult. And that is for fairly small, personal effects. Meteor from the Sky would be at least 60 shifts, if not more. So Lore of +5 is not going to cut it.
2) Skill declarations are not guaranteed and they should rise in difficulty as a skill is used more or the spell is getting bigger. Magic circle for a 10-shift ritual may be some chalk line on the floor. Magic circle for trapping a major entity is so complicated that only grandmasters could make it.
3) You need to control the power. A discipline of at least +5 is required to safely control power and interruptions (reflected as compels or aspects) can worsen your roll and make you fail - that makes the power explode in your face.
4) Thaumaturgy takes time. If the preparation is just a few quick declarations, nothing bad happens. But if you need to be focusing for hours at a time and then speak the incantation perfectly for an hour-long casting time, Endurance is going to limit your skills. This means you won't be getting as high rolls out of them - which leads to failures.
5) It bears mentioning twice; losing control of the power is BAD. If a ritual would take more than a scene, events keep unfolding in the world and may affect the ritual.
6) Thaumaturgy needs a sympathetic link. Getting someone's nail clippings, blood, True Name and the like can be an adventure unto itself.

[BumblingBear]

Actually, that's not true. Several things limit the power of thumaturgy;

1) Thaumaturgy spells are fairly costly. To reliably kill someone, you need 30 shifts of power. Trapping the Erlking should be comparable, if not more difficult. And that is for fairly small, personal effects. Meteor from the Sky would be at least 60 shifts, if not more. So Lore of +5 is not going to cut it.
2) Skill declarations are not guaranteed and they should rise in difficulty as a skill is used more or the spell is getting bigger. Magic circle for a 10-shift ritual may be some chalk line on the floor. Magic circle for trapping a major entity is so complicated that only grandmasters could make it.
3) You need to control the power. A discipline of at least +5 is required to safely control power and interruptions (reflected as compels or aspects) can worsen your roll and make you fail - that makes the power explode in your face.
4) Thaumaturgy takes time. If the preparation is just a few quick declarations, nothing bad happens. But if you need to be focusing for hours at a time and then speak the incantation perfectly for an hour-long casting time, Endurance is going to limit your skills. This means you won't be getting as high rolls out of them - which leads to failures.
5) It bears mentioning twice; losing control of the power is BAD. If a ritual would take more than a scene, events keep unfolding in the world and may affect the ritual.
6) Thaumaturgy needs a sympathetic link. Getting someone's nail clippings, blood, True Name and the like can be an adventure unto itself.

These are all excellent points.

I guess my problem is that to do it "correctly" for a large ritual like that, it would take half a session - focused on one PC's "thing".

For a game where the ritual is a large part of the plot, I think that the storyteller and group could make it work to be fun.

My group is just not that patient or magic-minded I guess.  lol

[Belial666]

Ah, then your group has never had to defend the caster from the bad guys long enough for him to cast the ritual that would seal the Outer Gates again. Or they have not been doing group thaumaturgy where they help the wizard with their own skills; a very skilled individual without magic may be able to provide more preparation to a ritual than the wizard himself.
And they certainly haven't had to deal with the burning building or demonic appearances or terrifying illusions when the spell gets interrupted by someone or something.

[BumblingBear]

Ah, then your group has never had to defend the caster from the bad guys long enough for him to cast the ritual that would seal the Outer Gates again. Or they have not been doing group thaumaturgy where they help the wizard with their own skills; a very skilled individual without magic may be able to provide more preparation to a ritual than the wizard himself.
And they certainly haven't had to deal with the burning building or demonic appearances or terrifying illusions when the spell gets interrupted by someone or something.

Nope.  /lesigh

My group in general is more of a "if it's scary, hit it 'till it's dead" group.

They're still unlearning the D&D mentality.  It will take time.

[UmbraLux]

I guess my problem is that to do it "correctly" for a large ritual like that, it would take half a session - focused on one PC's "thing".

For a game where the ritual is a large part of the plot, I think that the storyteller and group could make it work to be fun.

While I wouldn't designate it as 'correct', this is what I was talking about.  You either have a minor spell the wizard does with a bit of narrative and a roll or two or you have a significant spell where you involve the whole group. 

[Wordmaker]

My group has used thaumaturgy fairly sparingly in our campaign. A couple of tracking spells, maybe one big ritual to counter a bad guy's spell. I think, with an average of 4 sessions per story arc, we'd see at most one ritual per story arc. But then, I tend to keep things a little deep in mystery at first, then balls to the wall once things get going. Thaumaturgy tends to only be an option when there's no other choice.

[Lanir]

I don't think you absolutely need thaumaturgy or need it to work in any particular way to have the game be a success (ie, everyone involved has fun). However if you're actually looking to use it and having difficulties I have a couple quick ideas.

If it's players giving you issues by using it wrong or not using it at all, then have an NPC do something and have the players involved. It's okay to make what the NPC is doing a little beyond the reach of the players but not too much. You want to give them ideas here. Send them out to gather items or knowledge. It could be a bit like a Shadowrun adventure without the cyberware. Have them defending a caster from something during an important ritual that has to go off without a hitch. It could be closing the Outer Gates or it could be something more down to earth like restoring fertility to a royal line or addressing some imbalance (perhaps minor, perhaps not) between the faerie courts. Whatever strikes your fancy.

Another consideration is that... it takes time. That's why it's different from evocation. So... the wizzo wants to muck about with his spell. That's nice. What isn't he doing? This is a lesson I learned from the Amber Diceless RPG books. They had a spellcasting system that allowed you to rack up spells for later use and suggested the balance for that be interesting things happening. Short little things like the tracking spell aren't a big deal. You can wedge those in time-wise pretty easily and I think these are the primary uses for thaumaturgy in the game. But for longer spells, there should be some consequences. And it shouldn't be a long, drawn out ordeal where everyone else just sits there for a long time while you wrangle with what the spell involves. Rather it should be someone with thaumaturgy volunteering to stay out of the action for awhile. Unless this is a pre-arranged way for a player to be absent for a session, this is a sacrifice. And the player will want to make sure that what they're getting out of it is worth it, which is part of why it's fine if the roll doesn't have much chance of failure. Basically if someone overuses it they'll have to get used to the dreaded GM phrase "I'll get back to you."