Threshold question.

[Obsid]

A business or transient home has a threshold of +0.
A Bachelor's home has a threshold of +2.
A family home has a threshold of +4.
A multiple-generation family home has a threshold of +8.
A religious facility, despite being a place of business, has a threshold of +3.

So how about houses that double as a business? I'd guess if it's a bachelor's house, then it'd still be +0. But what if it's a family home, a family business, and one that's been passed through many generations

How about a large mansion of a house converted into a hotel, with a family of descendants of the original residents still living in and running the place, treating all their customers as family guests who happen to pay? Would that be a +6, or less?

[Bruce Coulson]

I don't think businesses would have a Threshold; family-owned or not.

So, although the family part of a home-run business would have a Threhold, the area where customers are in would not.

Religious businesses also do not have a Threshold.

imho, a Threshold is a place where by the Old Laws, an invitation is required to enter.  Businesses, by their nature, have an open invitation, and therefore offer no bar.  A church requires the permission of Someone in order to enter, despite being 'open to all'.  (Note that some supernatural creatures are capable, although uncomfortable, with going through a Threshold without an invitation.)  Even a religious-owned business which is run solely for charity is a business, which invites anyone in.

Now, if there's a separate building where the business is run out of (an old barn, say), and a home, then although the barn has no Threshold, the home certainly would.

[UmbraLux]

So how about houses that double as a business?

Depends on the business.  Is it just someone working out of their house?  Treat it as a home.  Is it 'open to the public' with customers constantly in and out?  Treat it as a business.  If it's something in between, give it an appropriate aspect and invoke / compel when appropriate.

[Obsid]

I agree with most businesses. Since most businesses would occupy part of the building. But a room-renting service is a bit different. Official "business" talk can be handled just about anywhere, and the entire house save the occupied rooms can be used by family members. Those that stay at the hotel are guests after all, paying guests, but guests.

As far as the house being open to the public, that's easy to solve, don't open it to the public. Guests and company only, scheduled stays only, and even be picky about who your guests are. It doesn't negate the business aspect, but it alters it a bit.

How would invoking / compelling an aspect of a threshold work?

[SunlessNick]

I see a threshold as a manifestation of faith, in the sense of a faith in how things should work rather than necessarily in how they do.  A home is instinctively seen as a safe place, and so is a church - "we'll be safe when we get home/to the church" is a sentence that makes sense even when stripped of any context, whereas substituting office or garage sounds odd without a context - home and church are where we hide from the dark.

I figure that other places of worship would develop thresholds too, though I would expect the spaces where worshippers enter as a community to have stronger ones than holies-of-holies entered only by priests in their professional capacities.

One type of business I do see developing a threshold is an inn.  I choose that word specifically for its rural connotation, because that's where I'd expect it.  The lonely inn on the roadside, the desert caravanserai, those are also places where we hide from the dark.  (Urban bars and hotels less so, but a diner on the interstate just might).

[UmbraLux]

I agree with most businesses. Since most businesses would occupy part of the building. But a room-renting service is a bit different. Official "business" talk can be handled just about anywhere, and the entire house save the occupied rooms can be used by family members. Those that stay at the hotel are guests after all, paying guests, but guests.

As far as the house being open to the public, that's easy to solve, don't open it to the public. Guests and company only, scheduled stays only, and even be picky about who your guests are. It doesn't negate the business aspect, but it alters it a bit.

Those customers are the public.

My basic point of view:
 - A home is where you live.  If you happen to work where you live but no one else crosses your threshold, it's still a home.  (Think web design, programming, or other IT support from a home computer.)
 - Once others start crossing your threshold on a regular basis your threshold will be weakened.
 - - A minor version of this can be represented by an aspect.  Best for occasional or minor use such as a sewing circle meeting at your place to make teddy bears.  (The aspect would provide a standard +2 when invoked.  It's probably compel-able to allow any members of that group in the house freely...and for them to let others in.)
 - - Before long, traffic across the threshold erodes it to no better than any business.  (This is where I'd put houses with customers entering and leaving on a regular basis.  Everything from crack houses to bed & breakfasts.)

How would invoking / compelling an aspect of a threshold work?

Same as any aspect.  A +2 when invoked in a relevant situation (anytime you're crossing or dealing with the threshold) or compelled to allow circumstances matching it's purpose / creation.

[Obsid]

@Nick. I rather like that. It's impressive and it fits in with just about everything in the Dresdenverse. Though I'd use the term belief rather than faith. It also makes it easy to determine what sort of threshold just about any place can have, just as "Who believes its safe, how often are they there to believe it, and how strongly do they believe it?"

@Shadow Light (Or is it Light Shade?). That makes sense. It would also imply that a family that gets a lot of visitors would have a weaker threshold than a family of hermits. I do like the idea of an aspect on any place with a threshold that might have some sort of exception to it (even churches).

[Michael Sandy]

How about a Members-Only club, that has been in existence for generations?

Or the private offices of a business that are NOT open to the public?  Does the executive washroom have a threshold?

An important criterion is whether the place is loved and cherished as well.

[devonapple]

That makes sense. It would also imply that a family that gets a lot of visitors would have a weaker threshold than a family of hermits.

Having a lot of visitors could indicate a depersonalization of the house, but I feel it more often visitors of a social, friendly kind will strengthen the feeling that a given residence is a safe place full of happy memories, not diminish it.  The Carpenter family Treshold shouldn't suffer because of house guests, cookouts, family reunions, etc.

You almost have to look at a house the way a tree would: in a Terry Pratchett novel, he sets up this wonderful image of how trees perceive the world. In the scene he describes decades passing for each blink, missing limbs and neighbors being a sudden surprise, because their perceptions are taking in an aggregate of all that happens in their vicinity, like a piece of long-exposure film set to ten years for every memory.

So, what is the image of that house over decades? Where does the sped-up film blur? Where are people spending their time, and with whom?

[UmbraLux]

It would also imply that a family that gets a lot of visitors would have a weaker threshold than a family of hermits. I do like the idea of an aspect on any place with a threshold that might have some sort of exception to it (even churches).

I tend to agree with devonapple on this...with a couple caveats.  Trustworthy visitors, such as family and good friends, aren't going to weaken the threshold and may well strengthen it (Is a bachelor's home still a bachelor pad if he's constantly babysitting niece and nephew?).  However, a different bachelor with a penchant for throwing parties every weekend probably does weaken his threshold.  These edge cases are where I like using aspects.  The Family's Second Home has very different connotations than Party Central!.  Both houses are a standard +2 bachelor threshold...but it's a whole lot easier to get in the second than the first.  

Shadow Light (Or is it Light Shade?)

Probably the first...but my Latin translation skills are...limited.  

[Taran]

A bachelor pad that gets known as party central probably has lots of party crashers who are uninvited guests and this might degrade your threshold. 

I don't think having visitors will degrade a threshold.  The place has to have values associated with it.  These values can be religious or family oriented and it has to be a loving, caring "energy" that encompasses the building.  I think that when you have visitors, in most situations, you invite them in.  Some guests might have permanent invitations, "come by anytime, my home is your home, make yourself at home."  When you start letting anyone into the space without needing an invitation, then the threshold will degrade.  Also doing "unwholsome" (sp?) things will degrade a threshold.

I like the idea of an rural inn having a threshold.  Being a safe haven for weary travelers the same way a place of worship has a threshold and is yet a public space.  I think it would be rare, but the "values" of the place - how it is perceived would be important.  The current owner might play a role as well...who knows.

[Todjaeger]

I don't think businesses would have a Threshold; family-owned or not.

A business would still have a Threshold, it might just have a value of Mediocre (+0).  Keep in mind that a Threshold doesn't just have to do with a physical structure.  Then transition from Night into Day, or Day into Night are also considered Thresholds.

Now, for the Threshold which would be tied to a home/building, the relative strength of that could really be thought of as the 'character' of the place.  A place which is really very impersonal like a big box store ("Hello K-mart shoppers...") is not going to have had the chance to develop the sort of unique character that a family hope would have a chance to.

Now a public building like a church, or other place of worship, would be a bit different assuming of course the place has had a chance to be established.  A brand new church holding services in a strip mall isn't going to have much of a Threshold, at least initially.  Established places, assuming whatever worship is conducted there isn't of the short to weaken a Threshold (which means many cult centers are right out...) can have a Threshold of Good (+3), but that is not to say that the location can't have a higher Threshold.  A potential example of a place of worship with a higher than Good (+3) Threshold would be the San Miguel Mission in Santa Fe, New Mexico.  Mass is still held there every Sunday, and the structure has been a place of worship for nearly four hundred years...  Of course, locations in other parts of the world which have been settled longer would likely have even more significant Thresholds.  Imagine what the Threshold value of a place like the Basilica of St. John Lateran in Vatican City, which has been around nearly 17 centuries, would have.

Also, while there are things which can weaken the Threshold a place would have, from what Harry mentions in Storm Front about the lake house, such things involve basically evil or dark deeds land rituals ike animal sacrifice, black magic, etc.  The sort of activities which would twist a person of pervert the character of a place.  Having an apartment or bachelor pad and throwing large parties frequently wouldn't really twist a place.  However, the bachelor pad of someone like a serial killer who has done terrible things in their home, would end up with a weakened Threshold because of what they have done in their home.

-Cheers

[Taran]

This may be slightly off topic, but does a threshold affect foci?

Say a threshold of 2.

So if I wanted to cast a spell of Power 4, I'd actually have to cast it at 6.  This I understand.

If I have a focus Item that gives me +2 to offensive Power or Control, is that item considered a +0

[toturi]

I think a bachelor pad and throwing enough large parties (as long as the people there are being happy and enjoying each other's company) would not decrease but instead increase the Threshold. Maybe the low Threshold of a bachelor pad is due to the fact that most guys wouldn't go through the hassle of a housewarming party.

[Todjaeger]

This may be slightly off topic, but does a threshold affect foci?

Say a threshold of 2.

So if I wanted to cast a spell of Power 4, I'd actually have to cast it at 6.  This I understand.

If I have a focus Item that gives me +2 to offensive Power or Control, is that item considered a +0

That is a good question.  From memory, the RAW doesn't specifically state whether it does or not.  Personally, based off my understanding of the novels, I would be inclined to have the Threshold impact EVERYTHING which would give a bonus to drawing power. 

In White Night, when Harry crosses a Threshold into someone's home in an apartment building, he mentioned that he left something like 99% of his power outside the apartment.  Given that Harry by this time was somewhere in the top 40 wizards on the planet in terms of brute strength, that says a great deal in my opinion.

-Cheers