Author Topic: Hangover City Setting  (Read 2413 times)

Offline Team8Mum

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Hangover City Setting
« on: April 01, 2011, 08:58:56 AM »
After and 'invite' on the fan licience thread, I've put most of the 'player level' information on Hangover City setting I've been developing for the Con games this year on the Dresden Files Resources wiki.
http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Hangover+city%2C+Liverpool%2C+uk

The first few chapters are available for down load from my web site. - down loads also include the 'teaser fiction'
http://www.wilsonclan.org.uk/DFRPG/

At the moment it is concepts only and I haven't got any of the game mechanic details on there as yet.

Also I've not fully finished proof reading so typos etc are still in there. (I was hoping to have more time on this but due to changes at work as of next week I'm up to 37hrs a week from 18.5, which is going to put a big dent in my writing time- though a lot more money in my pocket with is a bit of a relief!)

However I would really appreciate some feed back as this is the first time I've done anything this big as a single piece. Mostly before it's been individual scenarios and articles.

So, please let me know, Is this the sort of stuff you guys like?
Does it still work in Dresden despite the twists in there?
Are there any sections you feel are pointless and would never be used or jar too badly with the canon setting?
Certain sections touch on 'Adult' things like homosexuality and drug use. Would that put you off?
Are there any areas you would like expanding?

If you down load the PDFs- do the fictions help or hinder?

This has evolved out of a very long running PBeM so there is a lot more 'background' information that could be included but I didn't want to flood it or turn it into a history text, but would people like more of that to be included in the GM bit?

And finally - if there are any scoucers on the forum- do you feel offended or have I captured it right?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 09:01:34 AM by Team8Mum »
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Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2011, 10:23:07 AM »
First impression is that the city may be over-populated with things that go bump in the night.  Wikipedia says that the population of the metro Livepool area is around 1.1 million people.  Compare that the the 9.7 million who live in the Chicago metro area.  So, unless there is a reason for there to be more supernatural stuff in Liverpool, we'd expect a supernatural population roughly a tenth as large as that of Chicago. 

So what do we seem to have in Chicago?
3 white council level talents (Harry, Molly, Victor Sells)

30? reasonably powerful magical practitioners who aren't good enough to be on the council (Mort, the Alphas, Kravos, various unnamed customers of Mac's)

perhaps several hundred very minor mortal talents

3 White court vampires (Lara, Tomas, Madeline; the rest of them just pass through town; papa Raith and maybe another Raith sister or two in later novels)

20? or so Red Court vamps, as of Grave Peril  (Bianca and her flunkies)

No black court vampires (Mavra just comes to visit, she doesn't live there)

hundreds? of various minor unattached fae, ghouls, and various other nasties

a knight of the cross

and most major fae seem to live in the nevernever, not in the normal world.

-----------

So we have less than 50 members of 'accorded nations' that live in Chicago.   Cut that down by 9/10ths and you don't have much to work with.

----------

Next, the initial writeup of how the politics of the town work implies they would apply to everyone moving in.  But if it's a member of an accorded nation, I don't think the council really has much pull over them, barring an indirect threat. 


Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2011, 01:04:54 PM »
First impression is that the city may be over-populated with things that go bump in the night. 
Trying to count a populace which doesn't advertise existence, much less capability, is problematic.  Take your WC trained talent in Chicago as an example - Harry's mother, his uncle, and Elaine double your count.  And all presumably lived in Chicago at some point, probably at the same point.  Yet, even including those, we've only counted people somehow connected to Harry. 

Game population should be (and frankly is) treated the same as books' population - it's whatever the plot requires.
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Offline Team8Mum

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2011, 01:45:16 PM »
It has occurred to me in the past reading the books that there could well be a lot move supernatural types in the city who are actively avoiding Harry - given his reputation.  I mean there have been a couple of times when Mac's bar has emptied on his arrival...

Also as uk cities go Liverpool is not small, and I was trying to get a setting where there was enough variety of factions to allow for politics to be interesting.
(Plus having lived there for over a decade - I can testify from personal experience L'pool attracts a certain level of weirdness and that's in OUR world - I saw some people at The Raz who I still couldn't swear in court I was 100% sure were human.)
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Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2011, 01:54:21 PM »
In multi-author fiction (like games) it's especially important to nail down how the world works, because the authors all have to have the same idea about how the world works to share the world.  In single author fiction, "whatever the plot requires", but even then, the author has to be able to make things believable.

Now, for stuff put together for a single campaign, and where the alterations are stated up front, changes are fine.  But for a write up that's meant to be dropped directly into a stock game, the write up has to match the look, feel, situation, etc of the stock game as closely as possible.

For example, we'll compare the writeup of Baltimore to my numbers for Chicago.  Baltimore has around 2.7 million people in the greater metro area, so we'd expect it to have (very roughly) 1/4th the supernatural population of Chicago.

Baltimore seems to have (with comparisons to 1/4th of my Chicago numbers in parenthesis)
1 white council wizard, Evan Montrose (.75 of a wizard)
a handful of major talents (less than 10?) (note that Russell Carson, while sometimes described as 'a wizard' doesn't actually have the full wizard package of powers) (7-8 major talents)
plus plenty of minor talents (low hundreds?)

3 black court vampires (0 black court vampires)
less than 6 red court vampires (5 red court vampires)
~10? (two mentioned by name) white court vampires (.75 white court vampires)

'several dozen ghouls' plus other stuff (low hundreds of unaffiliated things that god bump in the night)

Seems to be around 20 members of the accorded nations (from 1/4th Chicago numbers, around 13 members expected)

------------------

So, note how you can come from just reading the books, using the rough ideas of critter population you might get out of it, and fit right into the Baltimore setting without a problem.  And if you want to add more things that go bump in the night, there the immediately presented ley line that you can use to explain more stuff being interested in being there.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2011, 02:39:28 PM »
Now, for stuff put together for a single campaign, and where the alterations are stated up front, changes are fine.  But for a write up that's meant to be dropped directly into a stock game, the write up has to match the look, feel, situation, etc of the stock game as closely as possible.
I agree with you here.  And I think the relatively unified "High Council" strays a bit farther from the feel of Dresden's world than I'd go...though at least part of that is because I think there's more potential for conflict and 'interesting times' when the local powers haven't all agreed and created a local accord.  Conflict is good for RPGs!   ;)

However, counting numbers is problematic.  It makes the assumption we see all of the supernaturals in Chicago and compounds that with a second assumption of Chicago being a good representative sample.  Worse, we know (from Backup) Harry isn't aware of all supernatural activity in the city.  So our first assumption has to be incorrect. 

Logically, there has to be a lot going on he isn't aware of...he's only involved in relatively high profile supernatural crime.  How many practitioners are simply willing to live and let live?  How much petty supernatural activity flies under the radar?  Then there's the sheer number of people in Chicago.  I live in a smaller city and, even there, really spend most of my time in a small part of it.  What's going on in all those areas of Chicago which aren't conveniently near McAnally's?
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Offline Team8Mum

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2011, 03:03:41 PM »
I agree with you here.  And I think the relatively unified "High Council" strays a bit farther from the feel of Dresden's world than I'd go...though at least part of that is because I think there's more potential for conflict and 'interesting times' when the local powers haven't all agreed and created a local accord.  Conflict is good for RPGs!   ;)

So make more of the
Quote
But times are changing, and not all the new breed want to be hamstrung by those rules any more. Trouble is bubbling under the surface, its ripples could sink everything and the ferry is only so big.

However it should be remembered that it is a big city and there is a lot going on under the radar. Rare Breed’s resources are not as limitless as the High Council would like to think, and a bit of ‘back-room/ financial persuasion’ can go along way when a mortal is asked to face down a supernatural entity that could rip his head off.

and push the stuff in clubland where all the 'rebels' are hiding out and the conflict between the fae commoners and the royal court

cool

The introduction fiction hints at that, but I'll make sure it comes over in the Adventures.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2011, 04:58:24 PM »
So make more of the...
Perhaps I'm reading more into it than you intended, but your High Council's laws appear to conflict (at least potentially) with the Unseelie Accords.  (At least in my interpretation of the Dresdenverse.)  So far as they do conflict, they're unenforceable...unless the power enforcing them can take on Mab (and any other signatory Power) and win. 

Requiring loyalty to a council member in particular is liable to bring Powers in geared for war.  The whole "don't harm unwilling entities" and "help others" memes are just as likely to conflict.  "Maintain the masquerade" may be the only part of the 'Covenant' which may not irritate larger Powers. 

Even moving past those from out of town, I don't understand why the different powers in town would have created the Covenant to start with.  Why would the vampires voluntarily limit their food supply to 'the willing' - particularly while agreeing not to do anything to make humans 'aware' of the supernatural world?  Seems like they signed their own death warrants...and chose long term starvation. 

Rule enforcement, even of the Unseelie Accords, is driven by self interest.  No one cares about the "greater good"...unless it aligns with their own agenda.  Similarly, no one cares about rule breakers...except when enforcing the rules puts a potential foe at a disadvantage.  Bianca's party and the events it led to are a good example.

Of course this is my interpretation.  YMMV.  :)
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Offline Team8Mum

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2011, 06:36:48 PM »
Quote
I don't understand why the different powers in town would have created the Covenant to start with.
So I need to cover the historical events that lead up to the covenants existence.

Quote
High Council's laws appear to conflict (at least potentially) with the Unseelie Accords.  (At least in my interpretation of the Dresdenverse.)  So far as they do conflict, they're unenforceable...unless the power enforcing them can take on Mab (and any other signatory Power) and win.

My feel has always been that the supernaturals in Liverpool are pretty much keeping their heads down as far as the events in the rest of the world are concerned. The city does have a bit of a siege mentality in that respect - outsiders are trouble and not to be trusted, especially southerners. Which is why in the fictions when Angela tells them why she is there they are not all that pleased to see her. They would rather be forgotten about and let to their own devices

Quote
Of course this is my interpretation.  YMMV.
This is the sort of thing I need to know though, its the problem with having a background you know well, and trying to put it down so other people can pull out the bits they want and use it. I have to be honest, I approached Hangover city as a self contained entity and forgot the Unseelie Accords.
I'll go and read up on them.
.
.
Quote
“Freeholding Lords” are also recognized: entities of power that do not necessarily represent an entire kind, just themselves
and their supporters.
Accords lay out an important concept: magical nations are responsible for policing their own.
Potentially could the city have declared itself a freehold under these rules, using the Fisher Kiing as the head, and the council as his advisors
, and thus be responsible for policing their own - therefore as long as they dont do anything to effect any of the other nations, they can carry on as they want?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 07:20:27 PM by Team8Mum »
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Offline Team8Mum

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2011, 07:39:00 PM »
This might help - (It will be in the GM section)
This is the translation of the latin on the front page, and the bit they all signed up to BEFORE the 'amendments' started... (bit like that WE THE PEOPLE thing you guys have over the pond!)

In so far as we are all agreed this day, the fourth day of june 1568, that for the mutual survivals and to the benefit of all there will be drawn amongst us a Covenant of understanding. That those individuals who are deemed to be not mortal and who wish to reside in the township of Liverpool agree to uphold and abide by on pain of exile or death.
It is agreed that the laws and dictates included with in the Covenant should be a fluid document and able to change to adapt to the needs of those signed. To facilitate this there will be formed a representative Council.  The council shall have one representative from the following communities;
The Energy Takers, (vampire)
The Manipulators of forces, (wizards)
the ones that have past beyond, (Ghosts)
The walkers in other shapes  (weres)
and the Fair Folk.  (Faeries)
They shall be assisted in their deliberations by the Guardian spirit of the city (The Liver Bird) and by the guidance of Justice (Sheriff Ream). It shall be the role of this council to hear any disputes under the Covenant and  pass judgement on the defendant if found guilty, or to make such modifications to the text of the agreement if all feel such judgement would be unfair.
It is not intended that the duties and restrictions placed upon the people of the city should be arduous. They should exist to ensure mutual protection from the mortal authorities that might other wise seek to destroy our kind. They should encourage each group to assist the others in so far as they are able., as a recognition that together we have a much better chance of mutual survival than we do apart.

To this we are all agreed.

Then a load of signatures which now goes on for many many pages….
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2011, 07:50:57 PM »
.Potentially could the city have declared itself a freehold under these rules, using the Fisher Kiing as the head, and the council as his advisors, and thus be responsible for policing their own - therefore as long as they dont do anything to effect any of the other nations, they can carry on as they want?
Yes...with some major caveats.

The White Council will continue to insist human wizards fall under their sway.  (Elaine is in hiding to avoid something like this.)  The WCVs also have an external political system.  Each of the vampire courts has a central power / signatory for that matter.  The Fae have at least three courts mentioned in the text, though perhaps declaring themselves independent is why they're exiled from the Nevernever.  (This would limit access to Winter and Summer powers.)  And enforcing any local rules on visitors might start a war.  (This is essentially what Harry did - enforced his ethics on Bianca's court.)  

The less intrusive the Covenant is and / or the more optional it is, the less likely your locals will but heads with other powers.  Yet, even there, individuals who forsake identity with and responsibility to other Powers should run into consequences. 
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Offline Team8Mum

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2011, 09:55:21 PM »
Quote
The Fae have at least three courts mentioned in the text, though perhaps declaring themselves independent is why they're exiled from the Nevernever.
Or visa versa- Fae exiled (or on the lam from) the faerie courts found sanctuary in the court of the fisher king. At least they have a king... It's just he's a bit, well broke.
Yeah that's something I can work with and 'brew'. Thanks

Edit: I think I need to write the sponsored magic which the fisher king gifts to his sidhe followers to balance the loss of seelie/unseelie powers - fortunately it's not like there is a shortage of material on the fisher king. This would also allow me to bed down what is going on with that disk in Pool of Life. This is starting to come together now :)

White council wise - Callum is a member I guess he might even be the local warden and so the guild could be a local extension of the White council (which was what he was hoping for when he set it up, but Liverpool's natural leanings towards socialist anarchy kind of undermined it)

WCV - the zanders are a minor family. As it says in elijah's section
Quote
Elijah himself is well aware of the tenuous state of a lesser family in the larger politics of the White court. He is careful not to draw too much attention to his faction and the city he controls. Despite the death of the old prince, there are still a number of Raith White Court vampires and virgins still in the city, and he is carefully to treat them fairly and as equals to his own people, not wanting to bring down the wrath of the family.

The potential for conflict with the external powers could make for some good adventure hooks.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 10:30:14 PM by Team8Mum »
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Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2011, 12:34:20 AM »
The problem with the council as as a non-accorded nation looks something like this:

A red court vampire rolls into town and fatally feeds on some homeless guy.
The council comes and imprisons the red court vampire.  The vampire says, "Help Help! I'm being oppressed!"
The next day, another Red court vampire shows up at the council's door and says, hey let our guy go and no harm, no foul.
If the council caves in, they've admitted that they are powerless.
If the council doesn't cave in:
The day after the Red Court emissary leaves, a strike team of reds comes into town and breaks their guy out of prison, killing a bunch of (council) people in the process.
If no one 'important' (i.e. a citizen of another accorded nation is killed), then the reds have just demonstrated the council is powerless, and the council doesn't have a 'legal' recourse against the reds.
If someone important was killed, then a red ambassador shows up at the appropriate nations and says something to the effect of, "We're very sorry that your guy was caught up in the illegal imprisonment of our guy by those bozos.  Here's a weregild for accidentally killing your guy."
And if the accorded nation says their guy was there in some official capacity, then they've admitted complicity in the illegal imprisonment of a member of an accorded nation, the red diplomats can squeeze some concessions out of that blunder.
Or the accorded nation has to admit that their member was just hanging out with some bozos who the reds had a legitimate grievance against, and probably has to accept the weregild with a smile.

-----------

And if the council is an accorded nation, then I think they don't have legal standing (within the accords) to do that kind of thing.  Plus every random Tom, Dick, and Harry that they make swear allegiance to them becomes a potential diplomatic liability.  Also, I'd assume that people who used to be of another accorded nation, but join the council change their 'citizenship', and almost nobody would be willing to give up their citizenship in one of the superpower supernatural nations to join the council.

-----------

Now, if the council acts much more behind the scenes, things might still work out, as long as they don't make too much of a nuisance of themselves.

Something like:

Red court vampire rolls into town and fatally feeds on some homeless guy.
The next day, he gets a very polite invitation to tea with 'Baron Bozo, of the council"
Baron Bozo politely explains to the vampire that the council has some entirely voluntary rules...
If the vampire gets the hint, everyone is happy.
If the vampire says, "You're not the boos of me!", then Baron Bozo thanks him for his time and sends him on his way.
A week later, the vampire is killed in a tragic hit and run accident.  The driver was a normal mortal, who had too much to drink, or something like that.  The Red Court, of course, kills the mortal, their family, pet dog, etc, but they don't have any legal way to accuse the council of complicity in the death.

Offline Team8Mum

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Re: Hangover City Setting
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2011, 09:08:03 AM »
Which may explain why Rare Breed, the inforcered of the rules, who are a group of Mortals (admittedly very talented and well trained mortals, but on paper mortals non the less)

So in your red court example  (which if you note from the rest of the background are not exactly 'welcome in the city since they were wiped out by a combined effort of all other factions around 200 years ago because they wouldn't play by the rules) a red court vamp turns up.
Option 1: Rare Breed's watchers clock him at the doc/airport/train station etc and he is approached by a large crowd that say 'back on the bus pall, your kind are not welcome here'.

Option 2: he gets into the city by some other route and has a go at a homeless person-A 12 foot tall bronze statue lands on his back and breaks it- your vampire is a squashed mess on the floor having not expected a a statue to move like that. (Dickie lewis doesn't like people hurting his friends). Local paper carries a story about people being killed by a collapsing wall or something.

Option 3: Red court makes the kill without anyone stoping him. Rare breed track him down and by pure weight of numbers plus all the tricks and items they have, kill him. if red court investigate all they find is that thier guy was taken down by the mortal authorities of the city, so he looks like a bit of a chump and they would probably want to keep that quiet.

Option 4: Red court makes the kill without anyone stoping him. Rare breed track him down but draw the conclusion he is too much for they to cope with on thier own. Request goes into the council for greater assistance.
What happen next depends on whoe in tray that request goes to:
A) Elijah gets it. Red court is approached by a 'fellow vamp' and invited to a party. Sex drug rock and roll distraction, whilst red court is 'distracted' party is raided by the police, and oh dear he was resisting arrest...
Back to option 3
B) Callum get it: red court finds himself getting on the next plane out of the city with a feeling he never wants to return and no idea why- because it's only breaking the laws if you mess with the minds of MORTALS
C) its full moon and wolves get it - 15 lycanthrope drag the red court member to Croxteth and feed him to 3 Loup garou. Whole thing is put down as an 'unfortunate accident, you know how these beasts are.'
D) the Fisher king get it. Under the accord, Longarm challenges the red court member to a duel, duel takes place out of the city and red court is given the option to walk and not come back.
E) china town gets it - hmmm.  I think we'll just say he vanishes never to be seen again.


The thing is liverpool is a city where "You never walk alone." if you are one of them there is a solidarity and the rest will cover your back. They do not like outsiders interfering - just look at then history of the place: Militant labour under Derek Hatron, the effect they had on the sun news paper after Hillsborough. The way they drove off the moss side group during the 1990's drug wars. They may bicker between them selves but if the threat is from out side all gloves come off.
There is a bit in the final fiction that covers this. I'll pull it out and copy it across, see if that helps explain it.

In the end as far as the rest of the world are concerned - it is just one city, is it worth kicking the hornets nest? What are you going to gain from it any way? Better to leave them on their own in peace and let them get on with it. It's not like they are bothering any one outside the city.

Plus Like any source book, as a ref you lift out what you want and ignore the rest. If the council concept doesn't work for you, maybe rare breed are independent vigilantes under Ream. You could still use the Zanders as a lesser WCV house; The china town concepts can drop into any china town in the world; the militant feminists of the river witches could turn up in any city. The fisher king is a fairly solid legend across Europe so he and his 'grail knights' could be struggling to hold back the wasteland any where.


edit: to include fiction mentioned above -
End games

Angela stands in the V.I.P. Departure lounge of John Lennon Airport, staring out over the concrete as the plane is loaded.
A figure joins her, his cool blue eyes checking the scene himself. "So Miss Hughes, we have an understanding.” Ream states.
She moves closer to him, lowering her voice. “Why did you show me all of that?” She asks softly. “You could have just put me on the next plane home. I mean, if I didn’t know it I couldn’t write it at all.”
“Consider it a calculated risk Miss Hughes. I am not stupid. You will write your book. People will read it. People will come here. If they come here it is better if they come knowing that on our turf, you play by our rules.” He fixes her with a penetrating stare. “You see Miss Hughes, this is our city. I know there are factions out there who would be all too interested in us, and want to interfere, but it is not so simple. Should that tiresome group of wardens think they can come here and tackle our mages for their past indiscretions, they will discover they are facing more than just a wizard and his few apprentices; that there may be a whole load of faerie that might just have a say. And should the white court wish to dispute Elijah’s right to rule, well he may be a devil, but he the devil we know and he is our devil.”
“And the fisher King ?” Angela asks.
Ream smiles, it is wry and teasing. “Is just a sad man old man, who would want to hurt him?” He says.
She nods. “I’m not sure what I am going to tell my publishers. I don’t think this is what they were expecting.”
"Tell them whatever you want." He says.  His eyes sparkles and there is a touch of a smile on his lips as he adds “Just be fastidious.”
"And if I don't?" she asks.
He looks her up and down."We have our ways." He assures her. "But I trust you."
"Really?" she asks, almost surprised.
He looks past her to Cale, discussing something with the steward, a brief smile touches his lips, then he  says "Yes." He looks back at her, his eyes turning cold again. "Let me tell you a tale by way of illustration Miss Hughes. It's a true tale, so rather sad. On the 15th of a april 1989 there was an important  football match, FA cup semi-final. I think by now you will have gather that is a religion in this town. It was in Sheffield, there were road works on the motorway, unexpected delays. Many of the supporters arrived late. As the start of the game approached there were a lot of people still out side. The authorities feared a riot. So they opened the gate to let the supporters into the ground. Back then, because of trouble between supporters, the standing area were surrounded by cages. Desperate not to miss the start of the game the crowd surged forward into the central enclosure rather than spreading out to the ones on the side, as they would have done if time was not so pressed.  It was a disaster Miss Hughes. People caught between the mass of the crowd and the cage and it's concrete wall. Crushed. Trampled. Suffocated. 94 people died at the scene. Another died a few days later and the final victim had his life-support turned off 3 years later. 96 dead. 766 injured."
Angela looks at him, despite the coolness of the man she can see the pain recalling this is causing him.
"The city went into mourning. I have never known it so quiet. I recall strangers comforting each other at bus stops. The crowds at the memorial shedding collective tears. The mortals pulled together. The people of my city put all their differences aside for the greater good, and I have never been more proud. But that is not the point I wish to make." He says. His voice takes a darker tone. "There was a highly successful newspaper. Claimed to be the biggest seller in the country. They printed lies Miss Hughes. They said that our people attacked the emergency services and robbed from the dying and dead. They thought it would sell more papers that way so  they did not talk of the bravery: of people sacrificing themselves to push children over the barriers; Of people pulling apart the advertising hoardings with their bare hands to make stretches; of people tearing down the cages to help people out. They thought to show us in a bad light was more profitable. It used to sell 200,000 copies a day in this city, but after that story, it’s circulation collapsed. All this happened before you were born, and yet to this day you can not buy that lying rag in this city. If any one sees you reading it you will be met with anger and you will be humiliated for your treachery. I have seen people put a lighter to it to make the point.” He leans forward. "And that is just what the mortals can do." He leans back.
"Got it." She nods. “Like it says on the scarf, You’ll never walk alone."
He smiles. "Exactly. Together we stand, an attack against one is an attack against all.”



« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 12:57:10 PM by Team8Mum »
I would HATE to be a character in one of the stories I write -
and then there are the days when it looks too much like I AM!