Author Topic: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System  (Read 7006 times)

Offline ironpoet

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[House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 22, 2011, 06:31:28 PM »
I don't have any particular problem with the Magic rules, but I wanted to try streamlining them a little bit.  I've found that I was trying to keep track of too many things: How much mental stress can I afford? How strong an attack can a pull off? etc.  In other words, I was getting bogged down in the mechanics, when I wanted to be focusing on the story.

There are more details below, but the basic rules are:

  • All magical actions cost one Mental Stress
  • Evocation: Roll Discipline + Focus Item
  • Thaumatrugy: Roll Lore + Focus Item
  • Spell Strength: Conviction + Specialization
  • Reduce Strength by 1 for each Exchange added
  • Reduce Strength by 2 for each Zone affected

I'm interested in any suggestions people have, as well as whether or not I'm introducing any big problems with these rules.

Offline ironpoet

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 06:32:49 PM »
Evocation

Stress
All evocation actions cost 1 Mental Stress.

  • Attack:
      Roll Discipline + Focus Item
      Strength = Conviction + Specialization
        Reduce Strength by 2 for each Zone affected
        Caster can choose to limit the Spell Strength
  • Maneuver:
      Roll Discipline + Focus Item
      Strength = Conviction + Specialization
      Difficulty to Remove Aspect = Strength
        Reduce Difficulty by 1 for each Exchange added
        Reduce Difficulty by 2 for each Zone affected
  • Block:
      Roll Discipline + Focus Item
  • Counterspell:
      Treated as Thaumaturgy
  • Rote Spell:
      Removed

Alternate Rule: The player can take a consequence to add that many shifts to Attack/Maneuver/Block Strength.


Fallout/Backlash:
If you miss, the GM can choose to Compel your High Aspect to cause Fallout or Backlash.
  • Fallout effects are up to the GM, and should be influenced by the spell strength.  (The spell hits bystanders nearby. The spell adds a Scene aspect. etc.)
  • Backlash means you get hit with whatever you tried to cast (assume zero extra shifts and no defense roll).

Alternate Rule: If Compelled by the GM, the player can choose whether they want Fallout or Backlash.


Philosophy
The main intent here is to streamline Evocation a little bit, to make it play more like the other skills/powers in the game.  This also slightly limits Evocation power, so that it's not quite as overpowered.  And since the risk of Fallout/Backlash is greater, it forces a Wizard to be much more careful about the magic they sling around.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 06:39:25 PM by ironpoet »

Offline ironpoet

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 06:33:23 PM »
Thaumaturgy

Stress
All thaumatrugy actions cost 1 Mental Stress.

  • Difficulty:
      Calculate difficulty for a spell using the same guidelines as before.
  • Casting The Spell:
      Roll Lore + Focus Item
      Target = Difficulty of Spell
  • Timing:
      Casting a thaumaturgical spell takes one exchange.  On the other hand, tagging/invoking enough Aspects to cast the spell successfully may take a bit longer.

Alternate Rule: The player can take a consequence to add that many shifts to the Casting roll.


Fallout/Backlash:
If you miss the Target, the GM can choose to Compel your High Aspect to cause Fallout or Backlash.
  • Fallout effects are up to the GM, and should be influenced by the spell strength.  (The spell hits bystanders nearby. The spell adds a Scene aspect. etc.)
  • Backlash means you take physical or mental stress equal to the Difficulty of the spell.

Alternate Rule: If Compelled by the GM, the player can choose whether they want Fallout or Backlash.

Note that "Thaumaturgy at the Speed of Evocation" is redundant under these rules.

Philosophy
I discovered, while playing, that Thaumaturgy just wasn't that interesting to me.  Once my Discipline roll was over +5, there was never a good reason to actually roll when casting a spell.  And once the +5 limit was reached, there was never any reason to improve beyond that.  Under these rules, even someone with Superb (+5) Lore can only cast a +1 Difficulty spell reliably.  So creating focus items (i.e. "Little Chicago", etc.) and doing ritual prep work (maneuvering/declaring Aspects) is necessary in order to cast a spell safely.

This also means that a Wizard can't just casually build up power for a 100-shift "Make me a God" spell.

Offline ironpoet

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 06:35:08 PM »
Crafting


The Crafting rules are mostly unchanged, with the following exceptions:

  • There are no Crafting specializations or Focus Items.
  • Add the highest relevant Specialization to the Strength of an Item.

A Wizard with Lore +3 and Specialization: Earth +1 could create an Enchanted Item that created a +4 Block (or Armor:2)


Philosophy
The crafting rules were already pretty streamlined, but this will hopefully balance them a little bit against the new Evocation/Thaumaturgy rules.

Offline sinker

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 06:37:48 PM »
One thing that I noticed right away is that Fallout does not seem to equal backlash. Seems to me that backlash is almost guaranteed to take a caster out, since (even though we aren't adding shifts) we're still dealing with weapon 4-6 attacks.

Offline ironpoet

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 06:43:31 PM »
One thing that I noticed right away is that Fallout does not seem to equal backlash. Seems to me that backlash is almost guaranteed to take a caster out, since (even though we aren't adding shifts) we're still dealing with weapon 4-6 attacks.

I forgot to add the caveat that a Wizard can limit the strength of their Attack spells.

It's true, if you're throwing around Weapon:6 spells and you absolutely can't afford Fallout (for example, there are innocent Mortals around) then you may have to take a moderate consequence and eat the backlash.  Otherwise, you can either (a) pay a Fate point to buy out of the compel, (b) cast weaker spells so you can survive the backlash, or (c) make sure you don't miss.

I admit, I'm not sure if this is a feature or a bug.

Offline sinker

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 06:54:55 PM »
Otherwise, you can either (a) pay a Fate point to buy out of the compel,

Right, I forgot that it was a compel. I feel a little better about that, but I could see some people taking advantage by simply opting fallout regularly. Then again I suppose that the GM would be perfectly justified in making that fallout pretty brutal.

Offline ironpoet

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 07:11:41 PM »
Right, I forgot that it was a compel. I feel a little better about that, but I could see some people taking advantage by simply opting fallout regularly. Then again I suppose that the GM would be perfectly justified in making that fallout pretty brutal.

Yeah, I expect Fallout would most player's default choice, but I think I'm okay with that.  When a Wizard cuts loose, things should start blowing up around them!

Offline ironpoet

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2011, 07:29:36 PM »
Are there any other thoughts about these House Rules?

It seems like some of the most common complaints on this board are about:
- How overpowered Wizards are compared to other characters
- How overpowered Crafters are compared to other characters
- How thaumaturgy is boring mechanically (i.e. it can't be used in combat, and it never gets rolled outside of combat) or
- How thaumaturgy makes most other skills redundant (since you can replicate them with a spell)

I think these changes would fix all of those issues, while still leaving Magic as a powerful, versatile, and dramatic aspect of the game.  But I'm not sure if they need tweaking or not.

On the other hand, if you think these rules would be totally boring and you'd never use them, I'd be interested in hearing why you think they're boring!

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2011, 08:03:29 PM »
It seems like these house rules would really gimp casters.
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline ironpoet

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2011, 08:14:37 PM »
It seems like these house rules would really gimp casters.

How so?  A Wizard with Conviction +4 and Discipline +4, Fire Specialization +1, and a +2 Fire Focus Item is casting Weapon:5 Fireballs with Legendary (+6) Accuracy.  That's not a particularly optimized character, and it's still a more powerful attack than most other builds can produce.

I'll grant that it weakens Wizards a bit (intentionally), but they hardly seem gimped.  (Unless I'm totally misunderstanding the terminology.)

Offline BumblingBear

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2011, 10:30:57 PM »

I'll grant that it weakens Wizards a bit (intentionally), but they hardly seem gimped.  (Unless I'm totally misunderstanding the terminology.)

That is what I meant.

The next character I make may actually not use magic at all.  Magic is really powerful in many situations, but just like the books (where Harry is terrified of a pack of malks), it has a lot of drawbacks too.

I guess I just don't see any need to weaken casters at all when they already have such easily exploitable weaknesses.  ::shrug::
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline crusher_bob

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2011, 07:53:11 AM »
Attack:
  Roll Discipline + Focus Item
  Strength = Conviction + Specialization
    Reduce Strength by 2 for each Zone affected
    Caster can choose to limit the Spell Strength
Was it your intention to remove the 'split' in specializations and just have them effect the power of the spell?  And only focus items effect the control/to hit roll?

Quote
Maneuver:
  Roll Discipline + Focus Item
  Strength = Conviction + Specialization
  Difficulty to Remove Aspect = Strength
    Reduce Difficulty by 1 for each Exchange added
    Reduce Difficulty by 2 for each Zone affected
What exactly does adding duration to a maneuver get you, since maneuvers applied with a skill last for the scene unless an action is taken to remove them.

Let's say I want to blind you with a bright light.
I've got discipline 5, conviction 5, and a +1 (control?) focus item.  I do the flashy thing.  You try to resist with your alertness with the justification that. while you might be momentarily blinded, you can still sense where things are. 
I roll (+, -, _, _) on the fudge dice for at attack total of 6.  Do you compare your alertness with the attack/control roll (6) or against the power of the spell (5)?

Let's assume you fail in your defense and are blinded

Then, your action rolls around, you decide to "rub your eyes to get the spots out of them" and roll alertness again.  If the target number supposed to be 5 (the strength of the spell)?

Quote
Block:
  Roll Discipline + Focus Item

So it's your intention to remove 'power' from block and instead have the block based on the 'control' roll?  This is sort of a bad idea, as it makes control an even better proposition.  Right now, control is great on the attack, but you need both control and power on the block.  This makes a character built for something like control 7, power 4 not ideal on the defense.  Whereas, in your rule change, control 7, power 4 guy is still great at defending.

And while I think your compel for fallout or backlash rule looks alright, I think your previous rules make it much less likely for wizards to miss that the regular rules.

If I want to make a combat wizard at 8 refresh, I can take superb discipline, conviction 3, and then use my  focus item slots to produce control 7 attacks and control 7 blocks, and still have plenty of skill slots left over to do other stuff.  A wizard under the regular rules also needs conviction, as they need the base power conviction brings to do good blocks. 

-----------

Thaumaturgy:
Some of your complaints sound a bit like complaining about the contacts skill: 

You never roll it in combat, and it's always some guy who tells you stuff.

The 'interesting' parts of thaumaturgy are whatever zany stuff you do to get enough complexity to cast the spell, not the actual ritual itself.  If works the same way in the books, almost all of the page count in thaumaturgy is spent on the declarations (bluc play-doh, ring of barbed wire, long cleansing shower, and do on).  That's the interesting part.

------------

Enchanting

While enchanters are powerful, I'm not really convinced that they are overpowered.   While they are very strong on the defense, their inability to get bonuses to hit like evocators can limits their offensive ability, and their limited uses clamps down on thier non-combat utility some too.

While it's possible to build an evocation offense, enchanted item defense character it actually takes a lot of your character focus to get there, meaning you can't do some other interesting stuff.

Since all elements are 'equal' wouldn't a good justification lets you apply your already useful evocation specialty to power up whatever enchanted item you want?

Offline Belial666

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2011, 08:50:51 AM »
Evocation and Thaumaturgy cost a whopping total of -6 refresh and require high skills. They are supposed to be powerful. But the changes you're attempting to make are gimping casters in comparison to everything else. Let's compare a same-cost configuration for a mortal (supposedly the weakest) and see what happens;


True Mortal assassin, -6 refresh for 8 stunts:
Way of the Gunslinger (+1 rolls to handguns of american make), Shot on the Run, Guns Akimbo (as off-hand weapon training), rapid reload, shoot and move, Occultist (Magical Countermeasures), Lethal Accuracy (ignore up to 2 armor), Stalk the Supernatural (+2 stealth vs nonhuman, nonmortal enemies). He's wielding dual Desert Eagles and has prepared special ammunition (silver, cold iron, incendiaries, hollowpoints full of ghost dust or holy oil) which he can rapid reload. He has guns 5, Stealth 5, Lore 4.
Attacks: rolls at +6, weapon 5, armor piercing 2, can be tailored to satisfy catch of lycanthropes, fey, fire-weak undead, ghosts and demons. All defense rolls at +6. Plus really good stealth and mobility.


Offline ironpoet

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Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2011, 03:36:47 PM »
Evocation and Thaumaturgy cost a whopping total of -6 refresh and require high skills. They are supposed to be powerful. But the changes you're attempting to make are gimping casters in comparison to everything else. Let's compare a same-cost configuration for a mortal (supposedly the weakest) and see what happens;

True Mortal assassin, -6 refresh for 8 stunts:
Way of the Gunslinger (+1 rolls to handguns of american make), Shot on the Run, Guns Akimbo (as off-hand weapon training), rapid reload, shoot and move, Occultist (Magical Countermeasures), Lethal Accuracy (ignore up to 2 armor), Stalk the Supernatural (+2 stealth vs nonhuman, nonmortal enemies). He's wielding dual Desert Eagles and has prepared special ammunition (silver, cold iron, incendiaries, hollowpoints full of ghost dust or holy oil) which he can rapid reload. He has guns 5, Stealth 5, Lore 4.
Attacks: rolls at +6, weapon 5, armor piercing 2, can be tailored to satisfy catch of lycanthropes, fey, fire-weak undead, ghosts and demons. All defense rolls at +6. Plus really good stealth and mobility.

First of all, that's a pretty solid build.  Nicely done!  And, honestly, I don't have any problem with combat-focused mortals being deadly, even to Wizards.

On the other hand, Thaumaturgy isn't really a combat skill, so if we're going to do a combat skill comparison, I think it makes more sense to only use Evocation.  Here's a quick build:

Pure Evoker, -6 refresh for Evocation and 3 Refinements:
Evocation (+1 Earth Magic, +1 Earth Focus Item), Refinement 1 (+1 Fire Magic, +1 Earth Magic), Refinement 2 (+2 Earth Focus), Refinement 3 (+7 Stealth Item, +7 Defensive Item)
He has Discipline 5, Conviction 4, Lore 4.  Final Specialization: +2 Earth, +1 Fire.  Final Focus Item: +3 Earth
Attacks: Earth Magic: rolls at +8, weapon 6. Can cast a Block at +8 or use +7 Defense 1/session (or reduce strength for more uses).  +7 Stealth Item 1/session (or reduce strength for more uses).  He still rolls at +5 without his focus item, and his weapons can't be hexed.

They're both pretty deadly, and they legitimately have different skill sets.  But I still don't think the Wizard is gimped in comparison.