Author Topic: Forming non broken stunts  (Read 8376 times)

Offline ryanshowseason2

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Forming non broken stunts
« on: March 02, 2011, 04:57:18 PM »
My players took a look at the stunt creation and came up with a couple stunts that didn't sit right with me but seemed within the confines of existing stunts.

In fists there is a stunt that lets you use fists as defense against anything athletics does, which is basically everything physical. One player wanted to do the opposite and let athletics serve as a fists attack, like a linebacker plowing through people or juggarnaut etc.

It seems to be within the new trapping rules, but it effectively consolidates physical defense and attack into one skill. So he takes no real detriment from putting 5 into it and then he desired to take a shapeshifting power so he could dump refresh into athletics, as well as supernatural speed( I think this might only effect defense though... ).

Also the one for conviction that allows its use as a defensive block. That doesn't reduce damage does it? I said h*** no but I may be wrong.

Opinions? The other ideas were similar in consolidation nature.

Offline Ophidimancer

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2011, 05:03:35 PM »
My players took a look at the stunt creation and came up with a couple stunts that didn't sit right with me but seemed within the confines of existing stunts.

In fists there is a stunt that lets you use fists as defense against anything athletics does, which is basically everything physical. One player wanted to do the opposite and let athletics serve as a fists attack, like a linebacker plowing through people or juggarnaut etc.

It seems to be within the new trapping rules, but it effectively consolidates physical defense and attack into one skill. So he takes no real detriment from putting 5 into it and then he desired to take a shapeshifting power so he could dump refresh into athletics, as well as supernatural speed( I think this might only effect defense though... ).

Also the one for conviction that allows its use as a defensive block. That doesn't reduce damage does it? I said h*** no but I may be wrong.

Opinions? The other ideas were similar in consolidation nature.

His stunt seems to work, but you can always put a limitation on it, like the book suggests.  Perhaps he can only perform that attack if he has moves at least one zone first, because he needs room to run or jump or whatever?

The stunt that allows conviction to be used as a block kinda does reduce damage, because that's what Blocks do in combat, but it's not armor, it doesn't negate shifts of stress after the roll.  Like any other Block, it is compared with an attack and the difference between them is the stress done.

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2011, 05:07:08 PM »
I'd take a page from the SotC playbook and use speed bumps, make the stunts part of a chain.  

For the first example I'd say he'd need to first take a stunt that allows him to use Fists to overcome zone borders (like Jackie Chan hopping up a wall), then the second stunt lets him dodge with Fists.  It's still an unusually good stunt, but he has to buy a less good one first.

I wouldn't really find the second one that objectionable, unless the character in question has some sort of Might power fists attacks just don't do that much damage.  If you have an issue with it you could mandate a previous stunt that allows him to use Athletics for some less-useful Might trapping, or require one of the existing Athletics stunts as a prereq.  
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 05:41:40 PM by DFJunkie »
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Offline bitterpill

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2011, 05:10:42 PM »
My players took a look at the stunt creation and came up with a couple stunts that didn't sit right with me but seemed within the confines of existing stunts.

In fists there is a stunt that lets you use fists as defense against anything athletics does, which is basically everything physical. One player wanted to do the opposite and let athletics serve as a fists attack, like a linebacker plowing through people or juggarnaut etc.


I would probably say that for this stunt he could use athletics (+2?) for physical manouvres which is what tackling is really. The fist for dodging stunt comes from the core book so I recon it is correct.
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Offline MijRai

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2011, 05:38:58 PM »
Think of it as an Armed Arts, but for Fists to another skill. Also, you can easily say he can't manuever with his Fists, only attack.That would be a limit on his Stunt that fits well.
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Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2011, 05:41:16 PM »
Heh, yeah, I'll second bitterpill.  All those stunts are still substantially less effective than an equal investment in powers, and vanilla mortals have it hard enough already.
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Offline Haru

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2011, 05:49:44 PM »
The most important thing, I think, is: the stunt/power has to fit the character concept. The conviction stunt is basically made for the true believer type of character, it wouldn't sit right with me to just have any character take it just to minmax his fighting capability. Think of a character concept first, then look at the stunts and powers that would fit the concept or create your own to get a character that represents this concept.

As others already said: if he wants to use athletics as an attack, he is going to need enough space, so crossing a zone should be necessary to use this stunt. And if he wants a shapeshifting ability, I would not allow him to use that stunt while shapeshifted. Fists is the skill that represents how you use your own body as a weapon, so if he shifts into some beast, he should use fists for any attack. Plus, he gets to shuffle around his skills anyway, when he shifts, so why would he need a stunt then?

The idea behind the fists for dodging stunt is, that you are trained in martial arts and therefore your fighting experience is rooted in your fists skill. You do not dodge a bullet whit athletics, and you don't dodge a bullet with this stunt, it just represents, how well you can position yourself, how good you can keep track of everyone involved, note if someone is trying to attack you and react in time, that sort of thing.

If you want a speed/athletics kind of character with shapeshifting, you could try a werepanther concept or something like that. Basically you take the Werewolf template and change it a little. Remove Pack instincts and replace it with cloak of shadows to represent the stealth capability of the panther. Again, you can shuffle around the skills, so there should be no need to take a stunt to attack in shifted form. Echoes of the Beast might provide stealth and/or athletics bonus for running, so if he really wants to the shifted form would create a benefit to the athletics for attacks stunt.
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Offline bitterpill

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2011, 05:53:51 PM »
You can't dodge bullets with athletics?, I thought Atheletics was the only thing you could use to defend against bullets.  I suppose I am going to have to start parrying bullets with my unbreakable sword.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 05:57:26 PM by bitterpill »
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Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2011, 05:57:44 PM »
Quote
You can't dodge bullets with athletics?, I thought Atheletics was the only thing you could use to defend against bullets.
Without stunts it is.
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Offline Imp

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2011, 05:59:54 PM »
One thing i tell my GM and have always said wether i am running the game or not.

It is ok to say NO to your players.

whether it be a simple no, or a "No but", dont be afraid to tweak their idea or simply limit it.

Prime example i am playing a character that is offensive but not a dmg dealer, i'm a tagger, so i needed to figure out a way to more throu zones fast and easy.  

So we worked together a stunt call "hong kong physics" it allows me to more thru zones with no penalties, i still make the rolls just never suffer minus to them.  The stipulation is i have to be able to do it "Hong Kong movie" style.  there has to be debris or objects around for me to flip/jump/roll off or around and i myself have to describe it fully.  So if we are fighting in a open flat field, unless i get very very creative i cant use the stunt
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Offline Haru

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2011, 06:15:42 PM »
You can't dodge bullets with athletics?, I thought Atheletics was the only thing you could use to defend against bullets.  I suppose I am going to have to start parrying bullets with my unbreakable sword.

What I meant was: the athletics roll does not mean "Oh shit, there is a bullet coming my way, I better dodge before I get hit". It is meant to represent how much you move in a fight, how good you are at making yourself hard to hit, that sort of thing. Yes, in the end you dodge using athletics, but the actual matrix-style dodge is not what that roll represents.
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Offline bitterpill

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2011, 06:17:42 PM »
What I meant was: the athletics roll does not mean "Oh shit, there is a bullet coming my way, I better dodge before I get hit". It is meant to represent how much you move in a fight, how good you are at making yourself hard to hit, that sort of thing. Yes, in the end you dodge using athletics, but the actual matrix-style dodge is not what that roll represents.

It can do with supernatural speed and above.
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Offline EdgeOfDreams

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2011, 06:32:18 PM »
In fists there is a stunt that lets you use fists as defense against anything athletics does, which is basically everything physical. One player wanted to do the opposite and let athletics serve as a fists attack, like a linebacker plowing through people or juggarnaut etc.

It seems to be within the new trapping rules, but it effectively consolidates physical defense and attack into one skill. So he takes no real detriment from putting 5 into it and then he desired to take a shapeshifting power so he could dump refresh into athletics, as well as supernatural speed( I think this might only effect defense though... ).

Using Athletics for attack and stacking with Speed powers is definitely over-powered.  The stunts section specifically calls out that no stunt should give a blanket +1 to an attacking skill.  Additionally, Inhuman/Supernatural/Mythic Speed all appear balanced around the idea that Athletics is for movement and defense, NOT offense.

If the guy wants to be a linebacker and deal damage by being huge and plowing through things, that's a *Might* stunt anyway, not Athletics.  Athletics is all about mobility, whereas Might is the big-and-strong skill.

Offline stitchy1503

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2011, 06:59:21 PM »
Wouldn't athletics work for a kungfu attack? No running involved with that sort of thing.
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Offline Drachasor

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Re: Forming non broken stunts
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2011, 07:04:58 PM »
The problem with the stunt, imho, is that Athletics is a very general skill.  It has a lot of useful trappings besides dodging.  Fists is a fairly narrow skill, and besides hitting things its trappings don't come up much.  Giving fists ONE trapping of Athletics for a stunt makes a let of sense; there's still a ton of athletics stuff you can't do.  Giving Athletics the major trapping of Fists for one stunt doesn't make a lot of sense, since there's hardly anything else from fists you'd want to do.  And not allowing maneuvers is silly, since athletics can be used for a ton of maneuvers by itself (and that's like saying someone can hit someone else using athletics, but can't aim the hit...which is insane, but again it isn't much of a restriction in any case).