Offensive options for physical combat, or "Is Fists made of Fail?"

[EdgeOfDreams]

I've been thinking about physical combat and how various offensive options stack up when compared to each other.

Guns:
-Range
-Bonus stress is 1 to 4 depending on choice of gun
-Circumstantial skill and damage boosts available from stunts.
-Various ammunition types can help with satisfying catches
-Can be the best damage output without spending refresh

Weapons:
-Limited range with thrown weapons
-Bonus stress is 1 to 3 depending on choice of weapon
-Circumstantial skill and damage boosts available from stunts
-Good synergy with Strength powers for extra damage
-Various types of weapons can satisfy some catches
-Can be used for melee defense

Fists:
-No range
-No bonus stress without stunts or powers
-Circumstantial skill and damage boosts available from stunts
-Good synergy with Strength powers
-Your 'weapon' can't be taken away
-Can be used for melee defense
-Difficult to justify satisfying certain catches (e.g. Cold Iron for Fae)

Evocation:
-Good range
-Bonus stress can easily exceed 4
-Limited use per scene based on mental stress
-Bonuses from Focus items and specializations can circumvent the normal skill cap
-Costs at least 2 refresh to start, more if you want to optimize it

Looking over all these pros and cons, it seems to me that Fists really stands out as the worst option for your physical offense.  Yes, there are some decent stunts that can close the gap a bit, but comparing two characters who have spent the same amount of refresh pumping their offensive capabilities, the Fists guy will usually be dealing less stress per hit without any of the range and other inherent advantages of the other three options.

Have I missed any notable pros and cons in my lists here? Has anyone had any good experiences that shed light on whether Fists lags behind the other skills?

If Fists really is the worst physical combat option, what can be done to re-balance it? In your opinion, should it even be re-balanced?

[devonapple]

I'd leave it alone. Or play a Monk in D&D.

Remember also there is the Armed Arts stunt which lets you use any Melee Weapons that happen to fit into the theme of your particular Fists style. Granted, you sort of covered that in your enumeration of the options for Fists, and a player is still spending a Stunt on it, but it is still worth noting.

[sandchigger]

What? Fists are less deadly than weapons?

Yeah... that's kinda why we as a species developed weapons.

[bitterpill]

Well I suppose you could do an upgrade power to claws to make them super-sharp so they do 4 damage rather than 2 but then that kind of blurs the line between weapons and fists anyway. Or you could do the fallout classic the ballistic fist a shotgun attached to your fist.   

[Tedronai]

Fists tends to be more useful for the non-vanilla critters out there that can pick up things like Claws (possibly with the addition of Venomous)
After all, if bare hands and feet were as good for combat as a high-powered assault rifle, humans wouldn't have gone to all the trouble to invent the damnable things

a few notes on the details of your assessment, though:
"'brass' knuckles" can be easily argued as a reasonable tool to use with the Fists skill to gain a weapon:1 attack as well as the potential to satisfy catches
it's the most easily justifiable skill with which to perform a maneuver to switch to Might for a grapple

evocation really isn't in the same ballpark
using it forces the conflict into rocket tag, as your self-inflicted stress hastens your own defeat unless you pop the opponent first
it requires multiple skills at high levels to use effectively
it comes with the risk of backlash and fallout
Laws of Magic
BUT: can easily be used to justify far more diverse effects (diverse maneuvers, exchange-spanning blocks and even armour without additional actions, better spray attack options)
can't be disarmed

[EdgeOfDreams]

"'brass' knuckles" can be easily argued as a reasonable tool to use with the Fists skill to gain a weapon:1 attack as well as the potential to satisfy catches

True.  I've considered allowing brass knuckles to be wielded with the Fists skill in games I run.  I've also thought about giving Fists the ability to deal 1 stress on a tie, only if the attacker does not have any other damage bonuses.  The possibility of tying with the opponents defense roll (which counts as a hit for all other attack skills) and still dealing zero stress bugs me.

it's the most easily justifiable skill with which to perform a maneuver to switch to Might for a grapple

That's a good point, and I would expect Fists (combined with Might) to be the preferred skill of "wrestler" type characters.

evocation really isn't in the same ballpark

Oh, I realize that.  I was mostly including Evocation for completeness, along with the note that it's the only option which requires spending refresh to even use in the first place.

[devonapple]

I've considered allowing brass knuckles to be wielded with the Fists skill in games I run. 

I allow that in my games.

The possibility of tying with the opponents defense roll (which counts as a hit for all other attack skills) and still dealing zero stress bugs me.

Billy and Harry have that same discussion, actually, and Billy suggests that such a roll place an Aspect as if it had been a Maneuver instead of an Attack.

YS 200:
Harry: "What if the attack connects, but inflicts no stress? It seems like something should happen when a hit connects, even if it doesn’t do damage."
Billy: "You could treat it as a maneuver, dropping a temporary aspect on the defender. Look at you, getting all rulesy. It makes me proud!"

[EdgeOfDreams]

Billy and Harry have that same discussion, actually, and Billy suggests that such a roll place an Aspect as if it had been a Maneuver instead of an Attack.

YS 200:
Harry: "What if the attack connects, but inflicts no stress? It seems like something should happen when a hit connects, even if it doesn’t do damage."
Billy: "You could treat it as a maneuver, dropping a temporary aspect on the defender. Look at you, getting all rulesy. It makes me proud!"

Interesting. I must have missed that bit, but I like it.

[Sanctaphrax]

Personally, I like the current balance. It makes perfect sense to me that unarmed combat, which is always possible, would be slightly weaker than armed combat or magic.

[nearchus]

Some Pros to Fists:

Bringing a gun or a knife to a fist fight is generally frowned upon. Also, if you'd prefer not to kill everyone you happen to get into a fight with, Fists is probably the way to go. It's true that Weapons and Guns are better for killing people/things, but not all fights are to the death. And it's much easier to accidentally kill someone with a weapon than your hands (not that it's impossible to beat someone to death, just less likely than putting large holes in their organs).

[Tedronai]

Some Pros to Fists:

Bringing a gun or a knife to a fist fight is generally frowned upon. Also, if you'd prefer not to kill everyone you happen to get into a fight with, Fists is probably the way to go. It's true that Weapons and Guns are better for killing people/things, but not all fights are to the death. And it's much easier to accidentally kill someone with a weapon than your hands (not that it's impossible to beat someone to death, just less likely than putting large holes in their organs).

'rubber' bullets, tasers, maces, hammers, clubs, saps, etc.

[TheMouse]

'rubber' bullets, tasers, maces, hammers, clubs, saps, etc.

All of those things make it more likely that you'll accidentally kill the target than punching them. Rubber bullets can be fatal if they hit a soft spot. Tasers can induce heart attacks. Maces, hammers, and clubs are all great ways to kill people, and suggesting them as a non-deadly attack vector suggests to me that you've never actually picked up any of those things. Saps can cause permanent brain damage.

[nearchus]

'rubber' bullets, tasers, maces, hammers, clubs, saps, etc.

It's true that there are non-lethal guns/weapons. Though I'd suggest that all of those are *more* lethal than a punch, with some reaching dangerously lethal levels. (Maces and Hammers?) The point I was attempting to make is that a Weapon or Gun escalates the situation (even a taser or a sap). A fist fight *can* be a lethal affair, but once you pull out a sword or a gun, you're saying you're willing to put the other person down. Sometimes this is what you want. There are other times where you don't want the situation to get that out of control.

[EdgeOfDreams]

It's true that there are non-lethal guns/weapons. Though I'd suggest that all of those are *more* lethal than a punch, with some reaching dangerously lethal levels. (Maces and Hammers?) The point I was attempting to make is that a Weapon or Gun escalates the situation (even a taser or a sap). A fist fight *can* be a lethal affair, but once you pull out a sword or a gun, you're saying you're willing to put the other person down. Sometimes this is what you want. There are other times where you don't want the situation to get that out of control.

I think that makes a great statement about the plot-level differences between the skills.  A bar brawl gets a hell of a lot more serious the moment someone pulls a knife or gun.  Fisticuffs are also a lot less likely to get you jumped on by the cops.

[Tedronai]

Not trying to suggest that that was a list of NON-lethal options, just LESS-lethal.  If you know what you're doing, a fist or foot can be quite definitively lethal.
ie. there are options for Guns and Weapons short of things that will 'put large holes in their organs' in routine use