The letter not the spirit of the Law

[BumblingBear]

It'd be completely up to the GM, because technically, even if he has enough refresh to pull it off, it falls off into a completely alien creature that has no human soul, nor has ever had one.  While it may have enough free will to not be utterly controlled by its nature, its still different enough that it would require full ST approval to pull off.  Kinda similar to playing a Red Court Vampire... While you may have enough refresh to keep your 'free will', your now a monster.. But you also technically still have a soul, since ((book 1, Storm Front... I KNOW, this is silly, but I HATE spoilers, and I would much prefer to do my best to not spoil anything, or break the no spoilers rule >.< ))

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Harry DID soulgaze Bianca in the first book

...  One would think most monsters wouldn't have anything of a soul, but maybe not...

I forgot all about that.  Thank you for reminding me... hmmm.

[infusco]

You can't play a fae for the simple reason that the fae don't have Free Will. They are creatures driven by compulsion and single minded obsessiveness. If you compelled a fae into doing something in tune with it's nature, it *cannot* refuse. No fate point counter, nothing. This is why the fae are so deeply and even sadistically manipulative ... they're used to driving bargains and creating contracts that cannot be broken, and will always honor a promise ... and will never ever follow the spirit of a contract, but will always follow the it precisely as written and get a good laugh at those who get taken in assuming that spirit of the law and letter of the law are the same thing.

In other words, if you were to play an actual fae, you and the GM would have to come up with one or two Aspects who's compels could never be countered by Fate points. Ever. Ever! Even if it means your enemy finding what your weakness is and then simply exploiting it to your demise.

[bitterpill]

I'm not sure about your interpretation of the fae, Harrys Godmother genuinely seemed to care about Harry's Mother and even tried to resist a very powerful compulsion for her sake.  

[Drachasor]

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Harry DID soulgaze Bianca in the first book

No he doesn't.  I just double-checked to make sure.  You must have that confused with something else.

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(It does seem to imply a soulgaze COULD have happened, but IIRC later books have Harry regularly look into Red Court Vampire eyes without any hint of that, such as with Ortega).

[Peteman]

So... what about sponsored magic?

The community is pretty much in agreement that sponsored magic is not affected by the laws of magic, so couldn't you kill a mortal with say... Summer magic and not lose a point of refresh?

I'm not of the opinion that sponsored magic allows you to bypass Lawbreaker. I think that's one of the inherent risks of taking sponsored magic. That your sponsor is a dick and tells you to murder people with your soul. That's why Hellfire is so "cheap". Because they want you to accrue as much debt as possible so when they try to corrupt you, you'll have harder time saying no.

That being said, Sponsored are able to use magic to murder without the Wardens hunting you down in the name of the Laws because Sponsored are not under White Council jurisdiction. As long as the Sponsored don't murder any White Council members, then the Wardens would have to use more extreme loopholes to track them down (if a string of refugees in a war devastated third world country, no one with any power is going to notice, but if several high-profile celebrities die in unusual circumstances, then the Wardens might be able to act because the Sponsored is risking involvement of Mortal authorities and no one wants that, though the Sponsored's patron will likely serve his head with a politely worded apology)

[bibliophile20]

No he doesn't.  I just double-checked to make sure.  You must have that confused with something else.

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(It does seem to imply a soulgaze COULD have happened, but IIRC later books have Harry regularly look into Red Court Vampire eyes without any hint of that, such as with Ortega).

I believe the exact section in question is this:

I just watched her, and absently tossed the handkerchief on the tabletop. Her eyes flicked to it, then up to mine.

I didn’t flinch. I met her bottomless gaze and quirked my mouth up in a little smile, as though I had something more, and worse, to pull out of my hat if she wanted to come after me again. I saw her anger, her rage, and for just a moment I got a peek inside, saw the source of it. She was furious that I had seen her true form, horrified and embarrassed that I had stripped her disguise away and seen the creature beneath. And she was afraid that I could take away even her mask, forever, with my power.

More than anything else, Bianca wanted to be beautiful. And tonight, I had destroyed her illusion. I had rattled her gilded little world. She sure as hell wasn’t going to let me forget that.

She shuddered and jerked her eyes away, furious and frightened at the same time, before I could see any deeper into her-or she into me. “If I had not given you my word, Dresden,” she whispered, “I would kill you this instant.”

It doesn't look like it was a soulgaze; it looks like what a normal person would get looking at another normal person's eyes and trying to assess what's there.  

[Tbora]

You can't play a fae for the simple reason that the fae don't have Free Will. They are creatures driven by compulsion and single minded obsessiveness. If you compelled a fae into doing something in tune with it's nature, it *cannot* refuse. No fate point counter, nothing. This is why the fae are so deeply and even sadistically manipulative ... they're used to driving bargains and creating contracts that cannot be broken, and will always honor a promise ... and will never ever follow the spirit of a contract, but will always follow the it precisely as written and get a good laugh at those who get taken in assuming that spirit of the law and letter of the law are the same thing.

In other words, if you were to play an actual fae, you and the GM would have to come up with one or two Aspects who's compels could never be countered by Fate points. Ever. Ever! Even if it means your enemy finding what your weakness is and then simply exploiting it to your demise.

Wrong.

This is simply covered by compelling the High Concept and a clever bit of GMing. What most people seem to be obsessed with is that refresh = free will. But the thing is that is just a thematic justification for a metagame mechanic easily hand-waved by the player and GM.

[infusco]

I'm not sure about your interpretation of the fae, Harrys Godmother genuinely seemed to care about Harry's Mother and even tried to resist a very powerful compulsion for her sake.  

Oh I'm not implying that fae don't have emotions or concerns of their own, but they are still ruled by their natures. Jim Butcher's done an excellent job of sticking to well known folklore in developing his supernatural creatures, and one of the most common elements found in fairy tales is how the hero (human) triumphs over a fae adversary by doing something an silly as winning a riddle contest or saying it's name outloud (although yes, the latter could just be a True Name usage).

[infusco]

Wrong.

This is simply covered by compelling the High Concept and a clever bit of GMing. What most people seem to be obsessed with is that refresh = free will. But the thing is that is just a thematic justification for a metagame mechanic easily hand-waved by the player and GM.

Actually, this game's very core mechanic is precisely that refresh = free will. It's even one of the basic and inviolate Maxims of the Dresdenverse: Monsters have Nature, Mortals have choice (YS10). To quote the text: "Fae literally cannot step outside their natures or break oaths".

It's why the Lawbreaker rules work as brilliantly as they do. In fact, I find them a better 'dark side' mechanic than any of the Star Wars RPGs. If you break the law, you'll lose a refresh point. Break it a few times, you'll lose another. Afterwards, you'll get a new aspect designed specifically to compel you to break it again. And if enough of those Lawbreakers lower your refresh rate to 0, your character has effectively succumbed to the dark side,

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just like that kid at the beginning of Proven Guilty who even Harry admits was too far gone and unredeemable.

[Tbora]

Look at Spirit of the Century of any other Fate game that also uses refresh and you won't find that in the book, their they are just treated as basic character points just like those found in DnD or GURPS. The DFRPG is exclusive with the free will thing.

In the end Refresh is just a game mechanic, and anything else is fluff to be hand waved as needed.

[BumblingBear]

Somehow I doubt L. Slate had any problems killing with fae magic.

[Peteman]

Actually, this game's very core mechanic is precisely that refresh = free will. It's even one of the basic and inviolate Maxims of the Dresdenverse: Monsters have Nature, Mortals have choice (YS10). To quote the text: "Fae literally cannot step outside their natures or break oaths".

It's why the Lawbreaker rules work as brilliantly as they do. In fact, I find them a better 'dark side' mechanic than any of the Star Wars RPGs. If you break the law, you'll lose a refresh point. Break it a few times, you'll lose another. Afterwards, you'll get a new aspect designed specifically to compel you to break it again. And if enough of those Lawbreakers lower your refresh rate to 0, your character has effectively succumbed to the dark side

Don't forget you keep accruing those Lawbreaker-tinged Aspects every three times after you break the same Law beyond your second Lawbreaker.

[infusco]

Look at Spirit of the Century of any other Fate game that also uses refresh and you won't find that in the book, their they are just treated as basic character points just like those found in DnD or GURPS. The DFRPG is exclusive with the free will thing.

In the end Refresh is just a game mechanic, and anything else is fluff to be hand waved as needed.

Different games using the same basic mechanics just means they're using the same basic mechanics. The Dresden Files Roleplaying Game, being based on the Dresden Files novels, are very much based around that concept. It's not merely implied but outright stated. Just because *you* consider it irrelevant fluff to be ignored doesn't mean you're right. I apologize if I come off as insulting, but if you wish to play this as if it were SotC, Diaspora, or Starblazer Adventures, then I recommend you simply go play those games and leave the discussion and theorycrafting to those who wish to play the RPG based on Harry Dresden's universe *as is written in the novels and Your Story*

[BumblingBear]

Don't forget you keep accruing those Lawbreaker-tinged Aspects every three times after you break the same Law beyond your second Lawbreaker.

This is why my character will just knock people out with magic and then slit their throats.  Easy peezy.

[infusco]

Don't forget you keep accruing those Lawbreaker-tinged Aspects every three times after you break the same Law beyond your second Lawbreaker.

Oooo, true, had forgotten that you keep swapping all your Aspects. I had assumed you only ever swapped one per Law you break.