My Group Hates the System

[Blaze]

Ever play the aftermath system, Shecky?  You needed a sliderule and a protractor!

[Shecky]

Ever play the aftermath system, Shecky?  You needed a sliderule and a protractor!

Ugh. That's one thing I liked about D&D 3.5; a lot of the math was taken care of up-front.

[zenten]

All very good points. And after thinking about it, I think the DFRPG is just too much work for my players. And in a way, I can see it.  Fate points fuel everything and to get more fuel, they have to be clever storytellers ALL THE TIME. So I see them looking over their sheets trying to figure out what to do in a given scene, how to move the story forward, but also incorporate their aspects. This can get tiresome very quickly. If aspects were more of a guide line and flavor than an actual mechanic, I think they would have used it when they thought it appropriate.

It's not the players really. We've played prime time adventures and Dogs in the Vineyard and these guys shine. They're really good at character development. But when a game makes you do it to survive a combat, it seems... annoying.

Am I making sense?

Have you thought about just making the combats easier?  The system can still be a lot of fun even if the players aren't throwing Fate points around all the time.

[devonapple]

Have you thought about just making the combats easier?  The system can still be a lot of fun even if the players aren't throwing Fate points around all the time.

I recall reading that Evil Hat intentionally made a design decision to have combat be more gritty in DFRPG than in other FATE offerings, to reflect the setting, and one of these methods was to reduce the stress boxes. Adding a few stress boxes back to everyone's character can help close the gap and make it less brutal, though perhaps adding to a potential slogfest if each combat is treated as a war of stress box attrition.

[BumblingBear]

I recall reading that Evil Hat intentionally made a design decision to have combat be more gritty in DFRPG than in other FATE offerings, to reflect the setting, and one of these methods was to reduce the stress boxes. Adding a few stress boxes back to everyone's character can help close the gap and make it less brutal, though perhaps adding to a potential slogfest if each combat is treated as a war of stress box attrition.

It helps if the PCs have NPC buddies helping them as backup.

My group runs an average of 6 pcs at a time.  Every week one or two people don't attend or have to leave early/late due to something.

With 6 players, my group has been surprisingly tough for monsters to kill... and some of the things we've fought so far have been pretty nasty.

[sjksprocket]

All very good points. And after thinking about it, I think the DFRPG is just too much work for my players. And in a way, I can see it.  Fate points fuel everything and to get more fuel, they have to be clever storytellers ALL THE TIME. So I see them looking over their sheets trying to figure out what to do in a given scene, how to move the story forward, but also incorporate their aspects. This can get tiresome very quickly. If aspects were more of a guide line and flavor than an actual mechanic, I think they would have used it when they thought it appropriate.

It's not the players really. We've played prime time adventures and Dogs in the Vineyard and these guys shine. They're really good at character development. But when a game makes you do it to survive a combat, it seems... annoying.

Am I making sense?

Maybe you can tweek it a little to suite your group. What it sounds like is that your character can and are willing to roleplay, but the self compelling gets in the way. Maybe you could just have them roleplay with the aspects as a guide, and you hand out fate points when you feel it appropriate. that would IMO reduce the amount of characters pouring over their character sheets and put more of the weight on your shoulders. But hey, it might also come down to this isn't the system for you. I am excited about because my group is kind of the opposite. They are used to be dnd players, and this is their first introduction to an indie game. So the aspect system for them will hopefully help them take more narrative control. So good luck, and I hope everything goes well. And even if you decide not to run dfrpg, isn't a great reference guide anyway?

[chrislackey]

Maybe you can tweek it a little to suite your group. What it sounds like is that your character can and are willing to roleplay, but the self compelling gets in the way. Maybe you could just have them roleplay with the aspects as a guide, and you hand out fate points when you feel it appropriate. that would IMO reduce the amount of characters pouring over their character sheets and put more of the weight on your shoulders. But hey, it might also come down to this isn't the system for you. I am excited about because my group is kind of the opposite. They are used to be dnd players, and this is their first introduction to an indie game. So the aspect system for them will hopefully help them take more narrative control. So good luck, and I hope everything goes well. And even if you decide not to run dfrpg, isn't a great reference guide anyway?

Yeah... I think that's a good idea. I think that would work if I could get them to play the system again.

I gotta say, the aspects during character creation is one of the best things I've seen in a role-playing game in years. I think almost every game can use them. I even did a Star Wars Saga Edition that had aspects and it worked beautifully. Giving out force points and the like for good RP and putting in complications. I think the beef with Dresden is that you really need those fate points and without them, characters quickly get handled. Socially, mentally physically... it's not just combat.

I'm honestly looking for something to convince my players to give it a try again. I think with a bit of massaging it could be really cool and they would love it. But I don't have any REALLY good reasons. But maybe enough GOOD reasons might get them interested. I don't know. But thanks for all the input here. It's helping me put some arguments in order!

[AlexFallad]

Ever play the aftermath system, Shecky?  You needed a sliderule and a protractor!

One mustn't downplay the importance of the Acid Splash Special Effects Table...

[Blaze]

*ROFLMAO*

[toturi]

I think the beef with Dresden is that you really need those fate points and without them, characters quickly get handled. Socially, mentally physically... it's not just combat.

The experience my group had is that your character's Aspects are mechanically an important part of the character creation. If your character leverages his Aspects to do stuff, then you need double-edged Aspects, ones that are both easy to compel but also easy to invoke. If your character is the quiet workman that doesn't use his Fate points much, then it isn't so much of a problem.

There's a guy in my group I'd call the Cleaner. He clears the mooks mob out, he uses his Inhuman Strength and Claws to clean house, Inhuman Speed and Superb Athletics to avoid attacks. He doesn't find it necessary to invoke his Aspects more than a few times a session.

There is another guy I'd call the Boss killer. He sits there, with easily Compelled Aspects, taking Compel after Compel until the boss shows his face and he cashes in all his fate points, tags, whatever bonuses he can lay his hands on and cuts loose.

[luminos]

Why doesn't anybody think of Concessions?  You want to survive in the Dresden Files, you don't do it by getting compelled a lot, you do it by making Concessions.  That alone will reduce the stress aspect juggling tenfold.

[Watson]

Why doesn't anybody think of Concessions?  You want to survive in the Dresden Files, you don't do it by getting compelled a lot, you do it by making Concessions.  That alone will reduce the stress aspect juggling tenfold.

And if you Concede, you get Fate points as well ("cashing out", YS206) based on the Consequenses you have taken.

[Wordmaker]

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but I find it helps to explain to new players that the Dresden Files (and the FATE system in general) is better viewed as a game where you craft a narrative, rather than overcoming challenges.

What I mean by this is that your skills aren't there to necessarily determine how competent your character is, but how much a given story is going to be focused on your character doing those things effectively. It's a subtle change of perspective, but a useful one, I think. So instead of a player feeling that they've "lost" if their character loses a fight, they should look at it that this story is about how your character deals with a superior opponent and eventually overcomes him.

The same holds true for Aspects, whether they be on characters or scenes. This isn't a game about stacking modifiers to get the best bonus. It's a game about the important parts of your character's story. If it's important to the story that your character gets the drop on a bad guy because he works best in dark shadows, then you spend Fate Points to have the focus of the story shift to that. If it's important to the story that your character has to struggle to press on and save the day even though he's bleeding from a wound, then the GM gives you Fate Points for the disadvantage of not being able to climb that fence, or an enemy tracking you by the trail of blood.

The story shouldn't be about whether or not the PCs win. It should be about how they choose to overcome their challenges (both personal and external), and what they have to sacrifice in order to do the right thing.

[zenten]

Wordmaker: Thing is, not everyone wants to roleplay that way.  It sounds like the OPs group don't want to.  But the Dresden Files system *also* works well with a bit more traditional mindset, you just don't have as many Fate points to throw around if you do.

[Kommisar]

Which, for now, is exactly how my group is working.  The game is much more GM driven with me (the GM) handing out most of the compels and Fate Points.  Despite all of my efforts, writings and conversations in building up the game and since, most of my players still see getting a Compel on one of their Aspects as something that means they "lose".  That I (as the GM) tricked or trapped them and they should do better next time.  My players are long time GURPS players and see Compels to the Aspects like they did Disadvantages on their old GURPS characters.  Something they had to take to get more points and then to mitigate as much as possible.

I'm working on this.  *sigh*

In the mean time, it means that the Fate Point flow has been slow.

What has worked and, I hope, will continue them on the path to great involvement and understanding of the system, has been leaning heavily on maneuvers.  They have been getting their bonuses and such from those over Fate Points.  It has also worked well in getting them to work more as a team in combat as opposed to everyone wading in and swinging away as individuals.  In fact, I consider this one of the real strengths of the FATE system.  That it can really reward actions in combat beyond "Swing and Hit" and allows for non-combat focused characters to have a positive contribution to combat.