My Group Hates the System

[Shecky]

I'm a LONG-term (since Red Box) die-hard D&D fan, to the point that I had pretty much gotten disgusted with playing any other game, much less any other system. And, I admit, my first reaction to a little taste of the FATE/DFRPG system was... not positive. The more I look at it, though, the more I realize that it works exactly as well as the GM and group want it to work. Let's face it: no system is perfect. And if the GM and players think otherwise and expect the system to work perfectly without any personalization, it's pretty much doomed to failure for that group. But the difference here is that FATE/DFRPG works exactly as well as the whole team DECIDES it should work, and with minimal user-end interference, just a little intelligent application.

[Lanir]

I think the original posts #3 and #4 will be resolved by more experience. I know that's not the desired answer and trust me, I've tried running new systems for players that are dead set on their favorite system. It can be a bit messy. The best bet to making it work out is to look at what the new system is good at making simple and possibly what the old one did well that your players liked.

Mostly I think what the DFRPG and Fate bring to the table that's different from a lot of the major systems is the ability to play characters with very different strengths, such as supernatural critters, pure mortals and spellcasters without things breaking down. That's the character creation side. On the story side it's strength is that it lets everyone get more involved in telling the story than a lot of systems do. You aren't just "a cleric" to plug into some standard group equation. What you are and even who you are is going to have a lot of effect on the eventual story that gets told. The main way this happens is if people are engaged in the game though. Probably the best way to do this is to get them involved in making declarations and tagging aspects. I've run other systems which allow mechanical rewards for roleplay and how well people like them seems to have a lot to do with how willing they are to get involved. If you just hide behind a number and hope it will carry you along (the way a fighter with high strength can get by early on in D&D for example), you're just not going to be that impressed with the game.

The best way to let the players get involved with this side of things (and yourself as well) is to simplify the equation a bit. Do the rote thing as recommended for the spellcaster. Someone else mentioned a different scenario where their physical guys don't see the reward the spellcasters do... That's a different problem. Basically the main different types of characters you deal with are supernaturals, pure mortals, and spellcasters. Any of them can focus more or less on combat or other areas of the game but when the focus is the same and the strengths are of different types they basically have differing abilities in various situations. This tends to be true regardless of system so this isn't a new thing. Casters blow big holes in problems and have versatility but aren't the best at endurance matches (just think about how beat up Harry usually ends up by the end of a novel and he's not throwing spells at the drop of a hat either). The supernaturals have power that's always on. It's not as versatile but it takes more effort to shut down. The pure mortals (these map most closely to the "skills based" characters in other systems) are going to have easier access to fate points or stunts than their counterparts. They're the hardest to deal with when directly compared to characters with more powers. Point for point, stunts aren't designed to equal powers. Like in other systems though you have a lot of options with this character type. If the character is totally focused you might have to look at a specially designed scenario to highlight the advantages of their choices. If they're 2nd best at several things, you can just arrange to let them shine a little in multiple areas.

[noclue]

1) Hard to give the PCs fate points - They use them quickly and it's hard to give them some kind of inconvenience every scene so they can get them back.

Well, as others have said, they don't get Fate points every scene. Also, Fate is not earned through inconveniences. It's earned when you allow your characters Aspect to generate interesting complications and unexpected plot twists. So, it they want Fate they need to start thinking of cool ways to interact with the story. That's not solely the GM's job.

2) Having to use fate points to gain bonuses - So one of my characters wants to take cover in a fire fight but he has no fate points to tag the aspect 'crates.' As I understand it, you can't use an aspect unless you have fate points. Seems very counter intuitive.

You can hide behind the crates, but if you want to add +2 to your roll you generally have to do something, i.e. a maneuver to generate a free Tag or spend a Fate point to invoke the aspect. I'm not sure why it bothers some folks that they can't get everything for free in life, but it does. Sure the crates are there, but it's all abstracted. Are they effective cover? How about if he moves a few feet (still within the same zone mind you)? Are the creates effective now? Who knows? It's all make believe in our heads. Spend a Fate point and you get to say that the crates are making you harder to hit.

3) Complicated magic system - anytime the wizard wanted to do something, it took a while. And I have to admit, I often got fuzzy on how if you succeed on a evocation, do you add in the power to the success of the casting? I just felt like it could have been made simpler.

Evocations aren't really that tough once you get used to them. For attacks, roll Discipline and add Power, just like a weapon adds its weapon rating.

I'm really not trying to start a flame or anything, I just want to try and save this system for my group. they want to ditch it and go with something like primetime adventures or wordplaly. I feel kinda bad thinking I dropped almost $100 bucks for a game I'm gonna play 3 times. Ugh.

PtA is tons of fun, but that's really a very different game. Hopefully, they'll start enjoying it once the Compels are working properly and Fate is flowing.

[Blaze]

IN our Story based DFRPG, we don't use the system in the books, but I still find them to be a great resource for information on the world.  Especially since the PDF is soooo easily searchable.

There are some good points being made here, especially the one that players have to stop simply being reactive.  They have to give that extra effort as well, work their own compels, and not be afraid of mistakes.

[mithrandirthewhite]

I have never played the DFRPG, but I have a question: is it still the DM's GM's job to kill everybody?

[sinker]

On the story side it's strength is that it lets everyone get more involved in telling the story than a lot of systems do. You aren't just "a cleric" to plug into some standard group equation. What you are and even who you are is going to have a lot of effect on the eventual story that gets told. The main way this happens is if people are engaged in the game though.

To add on to this the best way (IMO) to get people engaged is to really involve them in the city and character creation. Get them to help you create something that they have a connection to from the beginning and suddenly they understand that they have as much of a right as you do to shape this place and this story.

I have never played the DFRPG, but I have a question: is it still the DM's GM's job to kill everybody?

No... No on so many levels. What GM's/games have you been involved with??? (several more exasperated noises)

[toturi]

In this game system, it is no longer the GM's job to kill everyone. Now they force the players to torture their own characters for spotlight time so that the GM's hands are clean. If you are into masochism story  , this game system is definitely for you. 

[noclue]

In this game system, it is no longer the GM's job to kill everyone. Now they force the players to torture their own characters for spotlight time so that the GM's hands are clean. If you are into masochism story  , this game system is definitely for you. 

I'm all about the masochism story 

[Drachasor]

Joking aside, you want to pick aspects that you'd enjoy having compelled.  If you like playing a guy who runs his mouth, then get an aspect or two that reflects that.  You then get rewarded for that sort of thing.  Seems like a good way to go to me.

[BumblingBear]

Yup it's nice to have easily compelled aspects.

That said, in the game I just started playing, my sponsored magic compel has been the most fun and most game-altering so far.

I got a compel (which I accepted) to burn a mansion to the ground my group just had a battle in and which may or may not contain crucial information.

Good times

The fact that my group will probably be super pissed at me now or mistrust me will get me a lot of compels to my sponsored magic item of power... I think.

[sjksprocket]

The biggest point I think that has been made here is that if your players want something (fate points, cover, story, etc.) it's as much their job to get it as is your job to give it to them.

[chrislackey]

All very good points. And after thinking about it, I think the DFRPG is just too much work for my players. And in a way, I can see it.  Fate points fuel everything and to get more fuel, they have to be clever storytellers ALL THE TIME. So I see them looking over their sheets trying to figure out what to do in a given scene, how to move the story forward, but also incorporate their aspects. This can get tiresome very quickly. If aspects were more of a guide line and flavor than an actual mechanic, I think they would have used it when they thought it appropriate.

It's not the players really. We've played prime time adventures and Dogs in the Vineyard and these guys shine. They're really good at character development. But when a game makes you do it to survive a combat, it seems... annoying.

Am I making sense?

[Shecky]

Sorta. I suspect it's a personal-preference thing. I see aspects as being parallel to the essence of a D&D character - what he's going to want to do, WHY he'll want to do it, what will make/let him do it, what WON'T... and how all of that can adapt to changing situations. EVERYTHING can be part of any RPG if you play it smart... and it should be.

But, again, that's my personal preference. I've always felt compelled (ha, with the funny) in character creation to figure out just what makes my character tick and why, and how all that's going to fit into what role in the party.

[Blaze]

Yeah, I play the persona, not the rules.  I figure, as long as I know who the character is... the rest should be gravy.  If you feel tied to a sheet and need to keep referencing it for fear that you will miss something, that will drain the life out of any campaign.  *cough* aftermath*cough*

[Shecky]

Yeah, I play the persona, not the rules.  I figure, as long as I know who the character is... the rest should be gravy.  If you feel tied to a sheet and need to keep referencing it for fear that you will miss something, that will drain the life out of any campaign.  *cough* aftermath*cough*

Oh, I also like having the numbers. They're a great starting point for play. But that's what they are - a starting point. Gotta fill in the rest with actual play.