question about magic blocks

[BumblingBear]

As many times as I read about blocks in the book, I still can't totally wrap my mind around it. 

Ok - say I make a 3 shift block but I add two shifts to it in order to have a 3 shift shield that lasts 3 actions.

Does that shield automatically count as my defense against all attacks until I reach my 4th action?  Is that block in addition to a defense I may have... like a dodge?

So say I dodge a 4, does the 3 from the shield get added to it?

I'm assuming that I need to use an action in order to create a shield, right?  So I can't create a shield as a free action for defense if someone attacks me... correct?

I'm sorry for all the questions - this aspect of magic just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[HobbitGuy1420]

My understanding is that you still roll your defense, then take the higher of that defense or the block.

So, say you have that strength-3 block for three turns.  The first turn, you roll poorly on athletics to dodge the mad gunman who's shooting you and get a 1.  That gunman's attacks are still against a defense of 3, for the block. 

Next round, you roll well and get a 7.  The gunman's attacks are vs. that 7.

make sense?

[UmbraLux]

Your Block must be overcome before you are actually 'attacked'.  So a Block:3 completely negates attacks hitting with less than 3 shifts.  As soon as your block is surpassed, the block is shattered / ended and you make your normal defense roll against the full power of the attack.  It's all or nothing.

A block set up as armor does lessen the power of any attack it affects.  So an Armor:3 block would drop that 4 shift attack to 1 shift.  It also does not dissipate / shatter when a hit goes through it.  Of course it is twice as expensive as a standard block... 

It's worth noting blocks don't usually affect everything.  The obvious example are Veils - they tend to block perception only.

[BumblingBear]

My understanding is that you still roll your defense, then take the higher of that defense or the block.

So, say you have that strength-3 block for three turns.  The first turn, you roll poorly on athletics to dodge the mad gunman who's shooting you and get a 1.  That gunman's attacks are still against a defense of 3, for the block. 

Next round, you roll well and get a 7.  The gunman's attacks are vs. that 7.

make sense?

Yeah that makes sense.  So in order to block the first attack in an exchange, you basically have to roll initiative higher than everyone else, right?  Either that or act before everyone else unholsters their guns...

I guess what I am getting at is that a magic shield cannot be created as a reactionary defense action, right?

[BumblingBear]

Your Block must be overcome before you are actually 'attacked'.  So a Block:3 completely negates attacks hitting with less than 3 shifts.  As soon as your block is surpassed, the block is shattered / ended and you make your normal defense roll against the full power of the attack.  It's all or nothing.

A block set up as armor does lessen the power of any attack it affects.  So an Armor:3 block would drop that 4 shift attack to 1 shift.  It also does not dissipate / shatter when a hit goes through it.  Of course it is twice as expensive as a standard block... 

It's worth noting blocks don't usually affect everything.  The obvious example are Veils - they tend to block perception only.

I suppose that makes sense... but what about a character who has inhuman toughness?  Would the 1 armor from inhuman toughness (or worn armor) be added to the magical armor?

It seems that if that were the case, the magic armor would be pretty good.

That said, armor is not a shield or avoidance.  Soooooo..... say I create an armor of 3 that will last 3 rounds.  I'm assuming I am still dodging based on athletics and anything that gets through is absorbed by the armor, right?

[UmbraLux]

I guess what I am getting at is that a magic shield cannot be created as a reactionary defense action, right?

This tends to be GM-dependent.  The book is vague enough to leave room for interpretation.

I suppose that makes sense... but what about a character who has inhuman toughness?  Would the 1 armor from inhuman toughness (or worn armor) be added to the magical armor?

Per YS:202 neither armor nor weapon ratings stack.

It seems that if that were the case, the magic armor would be pretty good.

Yes, spellcasting is powerful.  Evocation is limited by Conviction though...and actions / spells spent on defense aren't spent on offense.  (One reason why I don't have a problems with using spells as a defense.)

That said, armor is not a shield or avoidance.  Soooooo..... say I create an armor of 3 that will last 3 rounds.  I'm assuming I am still dodging based on athletics and anything that gets through is absorbed by the armor, right?

Depends on the trappings.  Armor created by an Air spell might deflect attacks so they miss, Water might absorb the attack, and an enchanted Jacket could also...which fits the situation and block used best?

[BumblingBear]

Depends on the trappings.  Armor created by an Air spell might deflect attacks so they miss, Water might absorb the attack, and an enchanted Jacket could also...which fits the situation and block used best?

It seems based on the information I've gleaned in this thread so far that (upon GM's discretion) a character could create a magic shield as a reactionary, defensive action (which would be a good idea if they have a rubbish athletics skill) and then create magic armor too during their own turn.

This would effectively stop any attack that does not meet the shifts of the shield, but if it does, the character would roll athletics or some other kind of block (like with a weapon) to stop/evade the attack, and if it gets through, the magic armor would also take shifts off of the attack before actually chipping away stress, right?

That actually sounds pretty reasonable.  It seems like a character who is madly trying to stay alive could layer the magical defenses in that way.

That said, magic armor is not all that great except for not weighing a character down and some evocation focuses (like spirit) are good at deflecting almost everything.

Using "Aftermath" as an example, Murphy has armor that I would rate a 3 against projectiles and a 3 against melee. 

It seems that body armor would be just as good (if not better) than magic armor and is always in effect.

[toturi]

It seems based on the information I've gleaned in this thread so far that (upon GM's discretion) a character could create a magic shield as a reactionary, defensive action (which would be a good idea if they have a rubbish athletics skill) and then create magic armor too during their own turn.

IIRC, it is clear that using Evocation to create a block (magic shield) requires the character to spend his action to do so. But it becomes less clear when it is an enchanted item that has uses of magic shielding, here is where people say GM discretion.

Should reactive shielding be allowed, (IMO) shifts would be best used to create as high a Block as possible, instead of Armor or for longer duration.

[BumblingBear]

IIRC, it is clear that using Evocation to create a block (magic shield) requires the character to spend his action to do so. But it becomes less clear when it is an enchanted item that has uses of magic shielding, here is where people say GM discretion.

Should reactive shielding be allowed, (IMO) shifts would be best used to create as high a Block as possible, instead of Armor or for longer duration.

Gotcha.

That is interesting.  It seems that an evocator with a low conviction but extremely high discipline would be great for offensive, but not very good at defensive evocation.

It seems that whether it's controlled well or not, a large number of shifts of power are necessary for a good evocation shield.

[UmbraLux]

It seems based on the information I've gleaned in this thread so far that (upon GM's discretion) a character could create a magic shield as a reactionary, defensive action (which would be a good idea if they have a rubbish athletics skill) and then create magic armor too during their own turn.

The reactionary block is gone by the second action unless you have an extremely generous GM.  (As a reaction I don't think most GMs would allow the caster to split power between blocking and extending the spell duration.  Reactions are all about that immediate "Oh sh--!" moment.) 

This would effectively stop any attack that does not meet the shifts of the shield, but if it does, the character would roll athletics or some other kind of block (like with a weapon) to stop/evade the attack, and if it gets through, the magic armor would also take shifts off of the attack before actually chipping away stress, right?

More correctly, a Block would stop any attacks not powerful enough to break through and Armor would lessen the power (take shifts off) of affected attacks.

That actually sounds pretty reasonable.  It seems like a character who is madly trying to stay alive could layer the magical defenses in that way.

I could make a case for full defense being a better option.    It doesn't cost you Mental stress and gives you a +2 for as long as you care to keep defending yourself.  Better than a quick evocation Armor unless you're able to put a significant number of shifts into the effect.

That said, magic armor is not all that great except for not weighing a character down and some evocation focuses (like spirit) are good at deflecting almost everything.

Using "Aftermath" as an example, Murphy has armor that I would rate a 3 against projectiles and a 3 against melee. 

It seems that body armor would be just as good (if not better) than magic armor and is always in effect.

I don't think most body armor will be any better than Armor:2 (enough to stop a pistol round) unless you're moving into bomb disposal suit territory.

For trappings, I recommend looking at some of the spells in the back of YS.  Carlos Ramirez's Entropy Shield, Hyperawareness, and Riffilitum are all blocks (shield spells) with differing trappings.

[BumblingBear]

I could make a case for full defense being a better option.    It doesn't cost you Mental stress and gives you a +2 for as long as you care to keep defending yourself. 

Could you elaborate?  I am not familiar with this.

I don't think most body armor will be any better than Armor:2 (enough to stop a pistol round) unless you're moving into bomb disposal suit territory.

The book says that a two handed melee weapon is a 3 rated weapon.  Good chainmail (I'm assuming that Charity Carpenter's titanium chain is good quality) will stop two handed weapons.

Modern body armor can be level I - IV.  Cops usually wear level III body armor.  Soldiers wear level IIIA soft body armor (which will stop a .357 magnum round) and they have hard ceramic SAPI plates that are a level IV.  A SAPI plate will stop several 7.62mm rifle rounds.  I have friends who have been knocked on their butt by an AK round or two, but other than bruises they walked away from it.

Based on the attacks that Murphy has been able to/will be able to shrug off, this leads me to believe that she wears two layers of IIIa body armor (presumably bringing it up level IV armor) and she has maille sandwiched between them.

It's pretty potent stuff.

For trappings, I recommend looking at some of the spells in the back of YS.  Carlos Ramirez's Entropy Shield, Hyperawareness, and Riffilitum are all blocks (shield spells) with differing trappings.

I will do just that.

[UmbraLux]

Could you elaborate?  I am not familiar with this.

Full Defense is on YS:199.  Basically you give up your action for a +2 to defense.  Compared to casting a block where you use (give up) an action, take a point of mental stress, and have a (small) chance of failure...if you ignore the mental stress and failure chance, casting a block's break even point is when you put 4 shifts in it.  But that mental stress is important!  It could also be used for attacks, maneuvers, counterspelling, or veils.  So my off the cuff rule of thumb is needing at least 7 shifts for break even...6 to get armor:3 and one to extend it an exchange.  Even then you're using a precious mental stress point...

<comments on armor>

As with many things it's open to some interpretation.  Going by YS:202, armor won't stack (but may cover broader attacks), lags behind weapons, and lists Armor:4 as beyond "...personal scale, except maybe in magical or supernatural context."  So if the best personal armor (the bomb disposal suit) is 3 most good vests will be 2 and the cheap ones only 1.  Murphy's stacking armor covers both firearms and melee attacks instead of making it stronger against either.  The book doesn't draw a hard line though...I'm not trying to convince you so much as show you my reasoning.

[Sanctaphrax]

There are a couple stunts on the Homebrew Stunts Master List that let you create a block as a reaction to an attack. Look under Discipline for Reflexive Shield and Instinctive Defence. As with all homebrew, use them at your own risk. They haven't been playtested yet.

YS pg 202 says that a bulletproof vest is armour 1-2 and 3 is essentially the limit for personal scale mundane armour.

In my opinion, the best time to use an evocation block to protect yourself is right before you walk into something dangerous. Once the fight has started, offense will often be the best defence.

[BumblingBear]

Full Defense is on YS:199.  Basically you give up your action for a +2 to defense.  Compared to casting a block where you use (give up) an action, take a point of mental stress, and have a (small) chance of failure...if you ignore the mental stress and failure chance, casting a block's break even point is when you put 4 shifts in it.  But that mental stress is important!  It could also be used for attacks, maneuvers, counterspelling, or veils.  So my off the cuff rule of thumb is needing at least 7 shifts for break even...6 to get armor:3 and one to extend it an exchange.  Even then you're using a precious mental stress point...

Awesome - thanks for the page number.  I am looking at it now.

As with many things it's open to some interpretation.  Going by YS:202, armor won't stack (but may cover broader attacks), lags behind weapons, and lists Armor:4 as beyond "...personal scale, except maybe in magical or supernatural context."  So if the best personal armor (the bomb disposal suit) is 3 most good vests will be 2 and the cheap ones only 1.  Murphy's stacking armor covers both firearms and melee attacks instead of making it stronger against either.  The book doesn't draw a hard line though...I'm not trying to convince you so much as show you my reasoning.

I understand.  I get your reasoning - I just don't particularly agree with it.  By my reasoning, if there is personal armor good enough to stop rifle rounds cold (which are considered a weapon 3 by YS), it makes sense that some personal armor should be able to be rated as a 3.

If I were a GM, I'd consider most high level modern body armor a 3 against guns, 1 against edged/blunt weapons, and 0 against arrows or spears (arrows will go right through most modern body armor).

I am not trying to change your mind either.  One of the reasons the DFRPG system is so cool is that there is a lot of latitude for a GM to make house rules.

If someone like me who knows ridiculous amounts about weapons and armor, house rules about weapons and armor would be pretty specific.

[BumblingBear]

There are a couple stunts on the Homebrew Stunts Master List that let you create a block as a reaction to an attack. Look under Discipline for Reflexive Shield and Instinctive Defence. As with all homebrew, use them at your own risk. They haven't been playtested yet.

YS pg 202 says that a bulletproof vest is armour 1-2 and 3 is essentially the limit for personal scale mundane armour.

I could deal with that.  2 would probably be what most cops wear and 3 is what soldiers and mercenaries wear.

In my opinion, the best time to use an evocation block to protect yourself is right before you walk into something dangerous. Once the fight has started, offense will often be the best defence.

See, my problem with that is Harry uses his shield as a defensive action in the books.  In fact, he has mentioned multiple times that as fast as an attacker is, his shield operates as fast as thought which is always faster.