Author Topic: Expanding the Power Level  (Read 3058 times)

Offline Quazar

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 183
    • View Profile
Expanding the Power Level
« on: December 11, 2010, 11:50:05 PM »
How game breaking would it be to introduce Game Power Levels beyond Submerged?  Something like:

Reef Dive (12 refresh, 40 skill points, skill cap at Fantastic)
Deep Sea (14 refresh, 45 skill points, skill cap at Fantastic)

Would that make Pure Mortals without a ton of stunts useless, or flood the game with fate points, or weaken the choice between free will and power to the point where it doesn't matter?  I'm curious if any board members knows Evil Hat's reasoning behind capping refresh at 10.

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2010, 12:19:49 AM »
It's simple, really; your refresh level is the level you start at.

There is no max cap for refresh or cost of powers in the game; Refresh and skills increase with the experiences of your character, major choices he/she/it makes in life and what they teach of the world and about oneself. In short, milestones allow you to rearrange skills, stunts and aspects and the more important ones give skill points and Refresh. The more conflicts, changes and realizations you have, especially those large enough for you to choose to change who you are, the more free will you have, the more impact in the world and yourself. Thus, your refresh increases.

Power has no limitations at all, not even experience or free will. Any character, if they find a way to boost their power, could increase their abilities by adding stunts and powers. For example, a mortal could sacrifice aspects of his life to train harder, focus more, lessen distractions - or compromise his morals, his beliefs, and other important things to him to become better at his job. Any spellcaster could abandon the careful control of the Laws and gain more power through Black Magic far more rapidly than he could with experience, or tap powers from other sources, from human sacrifice, to demons, to chaotic leylines to the power of Faerie. And there are other shortcuts too - magic objects, rituals, pacts with various creatures, curses that change you and so on.
Gaining power that way, you make the choice to use it regardless of the consequences, before you are experienced or wise or disciplined enough to wield it and remain yourself. Thus your refresh does not increase and eventually becomes negative as you turn into a monster without free will.


In short, the game starts out at a set refresh level. The characters have either to earn more power though choices and character growth or simply choose to take it anyway. A spellcaster -from minor talent to wizard- could, within a few minutes, break the Laws about killing, mindraping and transforming several times. In but a single scene, he could get -6 refresh worth of Lawbreakers, increasing all his rolls about such magic by 3. That's nearly doubling your power by becoming a monstrous warlock.
Similarly, that same spellcaster could use his powers over many situations where he's pushed to his limits and learns new things about himself, chooses new ways in his life, and refine his powers over several years, taking Refinement 6x. It's a similar power increase from experience and accomplishment as you could do via dark magic only this time he retains free will and is not a monster.



An example of advancement through experience, choices and adversity is Harry Dresden; he started out at Submerged (10 original refresh) but over the course of the series has so far exceeded 20 refresh worth of Powers while retaining free will.

Offline Quazar

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 183
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2010, 12:37:19 AM »
But, strictly by the rules, reaching 0 refresh, aka -10 in a Submerged game, makes you an NPC.  Right?  Maybe I don't understand major milestones correctly.  Can other experienced players comment on this?

Offline Amelia Crane

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 998
  • Estranged Daughter of Darby Crane
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2010, 01:02:30 AM »
Campaigns only start at a given power level.  For example, in my personal campaign, the players started at Chest-Deep, and now they're a little past Submerged.  That's because they advanced, major milestones giving them more refresh, and significant milestones giving them more skills.  If they do ever spend their last refresh they become NPCs, but even a Submerged game does not stay at the submerged level for long.

Also, somebody already homebrewed a bunch of new starting power levels in the resource collection board.  http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17748.0.html

As for the reason for not upping the starting power levels beyond 10, I think it's just because starting higher is a bit of an exercise in powergaming and the system breaks down a little, losing balance.

Tbora

  • Guest
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2010, 01:53:19 AM »
Campaigns only start at a given power level.  For example, in my personal campaign, the players started at Chest-Deep, and now they're a little past Submerged.  That's because they advanced, major milestones giving them more refresh, and significant milestones giving them more skills.  If they do ever spend their last refresh they become NPCs, but even a Submerged game does not stay at the submerged level for long.

Also, somebody already homebrewed a bunch of new starting power levels in the resource collection board.  http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17748.0.html

As for the reason for not upping the starting power levels beyond 10, I think it's just because starting higher is a bit of an exercise in powergaming and the system breaks down a little, losing balance.

I statted the first 20 levels of refresh in that aforementioned thread, and I disagree with your assessment of the game loosing balance at higher levels, I believe it can handle it easily up to around 18 refresh or so with no problem (as this is the level Harry is actually around by the time of Changes), but then you start to need to make slight mods and house rules for anything beyond that.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12404
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2010, 03:43:59 AM »
I've also made a few power levels of my own, which generally offer more refresh and fewer skill points at the higher levels than Tbora's. They might not be so suitable for players, since I made them specifically with NPCs in mind. You can find them on the Generic NPC thread.

I don't think that the game breaks down at the higher levels unless you make one of two mistakes. The first is playing a mortal. Mortals will either end up with 12+ stunts or an equivalent number of fate points, and both of those options are logistically challenging. The second is allowing the Physical Immunity power. That thing is ridiculous.

I happen to be running a high refresh game right now. It seems to be going well, but we've just started. I guess we'll put the game's balance to the test.

Offline Drashna

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2010, 09:05:17 AM »
Running a game where players are starting off with 14 refresh, and 40 skillpoints, it's not unbalanced. Threw a couple of "Kalshazzak" type demons at them, minus the breath weapon and the leap stunt, and it nearly wiped them (that's 2x -8 refresh goons).  And that was with a "minotaur" changeling with 12 refresh worth of abilities (and 8 physical stress).  (though... the poor sports car!)

Though, you generally will need more goons, smarter goons, or caster goons as refresh level gets higher just to keep things challenging. 

Though, I'll disagree with sanctaphrax about pure mortals.  They'll need half their refresh in stunts to be effective, and not to have *too* many fate points.  But I'd definitely recommend they have a highly specialized theme.  A Murphy like character in a 16 refresh game should have about every martial artist stunt and gun stunt, plus a few other combat/police related stunts. Lots.
[qoute='piotr1600']Sure true love will conquer all... You sponsored an instant vision of a tentacled Cthuluoid monstrosity following Elaine around, meeping piteously and making puppy dog eyes at her while she sighs loudly and gently kisses those tentacles...[/qoute]

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12404
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2010, 04:59:29 AM »
Well, I could be wrong about the mortals. But I'd like to point out that I was thinking more of a 38 refresh game than a 16 refresh one. Nine stunts and nine fate points is (with effort) managable, but 20 stunts and 20 fate points is probably a huge mess.

Offline Drashna

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2010, 08:14:31 AM »
Sweet jebus. Yeah, 30+ refresh might be an issue. If only for keeping things straight!!  But then again, you could have a combat machine there. Oh, the ideas here.... Thanks Sancaphrax! Time to pull up excel and start stating a bunch of 38 refresh monster mortals!
[qoute='piotr1600']Sure true love will conquer all... You sponsored an instant vision of a tentacled Cthuluoid monstrosity following Elaine around, meeping piteously and making puppy dog eyes at her while she sighs loudly and gently kisses those tentacles...[/qoute]

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2010, 08:19:57 AM »
No, it isn't. I've made mortal character with as much as 40(!) spent refresh. Case in point, Batman;
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19290.msg856570.html#msg856570

Also, a sufficiently specialized mortal with a guns skill of +6 could have the following offensive stunts;

Always Ready +1 to making Declarations to have a gadget or small amount of obscure substance helpful to the situation. Up to 3 times/session may make such declarations even when they'd be implausible.
Study Weakness +1 Lore to finding the Catch or other weaknesses of superhuman adversaries. May research even normally "personal" weaknesses.
Monster Slayer +2 to gun attacks when you are using ammunition that satisfies a monster's catch.
Lethal Shot +2 stress with guns vs unarmored targets, +1 stress vs armor 1
Deadeye Shot May target armor gaps or vulnerable locations; if you aim your attack with guns treat armor as 2 pts lower
Guns Akimbo as per off-hand weapon training but for guns
Swift Aim may aim as a supplemental action, taking the normal penalty
Gunsmith as car mechanic but for guns
Rapid Reload


A mortal with the above does the following in a combat round;
1) Declaration/Assessment of a creature's weakness via Lore (no action)
2) Rapid-reload the right ammunition to satisfy catch (no action)
3) Aim (swift action)
4) Shoot the monster, tagging a couple of aspects previously applied with gunsmith to either your gun or the custom-made ammo via craftmanship.

Attack rating: 6 base, +2 monster slayer, -1 supplemental acton, +2 aiming, +4 from 2 aspects tagged = +13
Weapon rating: 3 base (desert eagles), +2 for guns akimbo, +2 for lethal shot = 7. Ingores 2 pts of armor, satisfies catch


Nice, eh?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 08:37:32 AM by Belial666 »

Offline luminos

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1234
  • Um... Hello?
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2010, 12:49:19 PM »
a pure mortal with a ton of stunts is already sub-optimal, so yes, higher refresh will really crunch down on those types. 

The biggest trouble you'll have at higher refresh is balancing opponents to challenge party members.  At a certain point, the middle ground between "higher initiative crushes the other guy flat" and "one guy clear dominance over the other guy" gets to small to reliably hit, so combat becomes way more luck and superior builds than actual tactics.  You'll get less and less of "two guys taking several turns to try to get the upper hand" because offensive power grows faster than defensive power.

I have enough trouble making opponents balanced for a team of submerged characters.  An even challenge for 4-5 submerged characters is going to require over 30 points of powers, and if you want to make the fight difficult, over 40 or 50 points.  If you make the base refresh 14, then you'll have to start homebrewing a whole bunch of powers or get really creative with the ones that are there.
Lawful Chaotic

Offline Belial666

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2010, 07:26:33 PM »
I am not sure if it is my experience with DnD at high levels or my experience with powergaming in general, but if you give me about twice the refresh of one of the PCs, I can make an opponent to easily challenge the entire group.

In addition, challenging a group is not only a matter of powers but using those powers. Binder for example was a good deal weaker than Harry Dresden but he still challenged an entire group of wardens in that island fight and almost got Harry and Murphy.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12404
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2010, 10:19:34 PM »
Not to be rude, but Batman seems like a huge pain to play. Too many stunts to keep track of. And your example of a skilled mortal is a bit sketchy, since some of those stunts are questionably valid.

That being said, I think you're quite right about the ease of challenging powerful groups. The Demon Lord on the Generic NPC thread, for example, could wipe the floor with a large percentage of 14-refresh groups. The problems I can see are mostly in battles between to humans with heavily-refined evocation. There is a sort of "rocket-launcher tag" feeling to duels between powerful wizards.

Offline toturi

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 734
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2010, 04:00:09 AM »
From what I have seen in play, if you are playing a pure mortal, having the right Aspects that can be Invoked for a wide variety of situations become very important.

Point for point, Powers are better than similar Stunts in one way or another. Taking more Stunts is an option if there isn't a Power that duplicates what the Stunt does.

I am not sure if it is my experience with DnD at high levels or my experience with powergaming in general, but if you give me about twice the refresh of one of the PCs, I can make an opponent to easily challenge the entire group.
True. I find that above a certain Refresh threshold the higher Refresh an NPC has, the easier it becomes to "challenge" the entire group.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline Peteman

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 102
    • View Profile
Re: Expanding the Power Level
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2010, 05:15:39 AM »
To be honest, Batman kinda strikes me as one of those Mortals that has "gone off the deep end" as it were. He can't really stop being Batman. He's a monster in game mechanics, even if he's a good monster.