First Law and World Hopping PCs

[zcthu3]

Hi all,

My campaign is taking an... interesting... tern, (for those of you familiar with the Black Company series, this premise will be familiar)wherein the PCs have discovered a key that allows them to access the Glittering Plain - a space between alternate Earths - which in turn allows them to access other Earths (there is a whole bunch of other stuff that I am tying into this but it is outside the scope of the question). Please also note that for this game this is quite different to the Outer Gates which is accessing things outside Creation. These worlds are part of Creation - simply alternative versions of Earth.

Anyway, the PCs have decided to go exploring which is fine and I have even decided on a bunch of ideas to use other settings that I enjoy as the other gaiming worlds.

One of these is the MIDNIGHT setting. For those unfamiliar with this world, it is a D&Desque fantasy world (it was a D&D setting afterall) where in a "Dark God" has managed to separate the world from the "higher planes of existance", in Dresden Terms, the Nevernever. The PCs are managing to bypass this division by getting there through the Glittering Plain (in my cosmology each world has its own Nevernever but all sit in a larger "Creation" joined by the Glittering Plain).

Anyway, in MIDNIGHT the fantastic races (elves, dwarves, orcs etc.) are all descended from an Elder Fae race. I am thinking that once the world was separated from the Nevernever, these races devolved into more "human-like" races. They are not truely Fae in terms of Dresden anymore, but more like scion races that breed true and are equally native to that version of Earth. My questionis, should the PCs get Lawbreaker stunts for killing these races - they're not human per se, but they are native to that Earth as are the human races of the world? Obviously there are no wardens on that world, but the spiritual change of using magic to kill is still a valid issue.

I can't make a decison one way or another, and would like some other opinions. Thoughts?

 

[Richard_Chilton]

If they have the qualities of humanity - free will and a soul, then I'd say.

But the big thing to worry about is those shadows... If the ruptures and they get out then they could destroy the world.  (At least they could if this is Glen Cook's Glittering Plain.) 

Richard

[zcthu3]

Why yes... yes it could... MAWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Sorry, my evil GMing getting a hold of me there... I already thought of that - this is what happens when PCs run off without really knowing what they're getting into...

[Becq]

The "Non-people don't count ... or do they?" section (YS232) gives some guidance here, but it's not entirely clear-cut.

Distilling it down, my take is that the First Law basically governs using magic to seperate a living soul from a mortal body.  In particular, it does *not* apply only to humans; it would be better to use the terms "mortals" or "people" instead.  In the vanilla Dresdenverse, this largely means humans.  In your world, however, that is less true.  Perhaps it would be easier to define who the First Law doesn't apply to.  That would be pretty much anything that is monstrous, supernatural, of the spirit world or underworld, or of the Nevernever.  Either way you end up with some judgement calls, which you as the GM (or your group as a collaborative effort) should try to nail down, preferably before the issue comes up.

My own take would be that in a D&D setting, humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, and the other basic player character races would count as "people".  Monster races, outsiders (even native outsiders or planetouched like Aasimar or Tieflings), and anything supernatural would not.



It's probably best to keep in mind that the Laws govern what you can do to (mortal) people.  In the Dresdenverse, this is often simplified to humans, since there are not any non-human races after you throw out everything that's monstrous, supernatural, Nevernever-ish, etc.  In a D&D-style setting, however, the basic player races (elves, dwarves, etc) should equally count as people.  The more outsiderish races such as Tieflings and Celestials, of course, would not.

[mcalistorm]

You could always use they "game mechanic litmus test". If the race is playable as a PC under whichever point cost you chose for your campian, then, yes they fall under the first law. If the race's basic point cost makes them NPC's then the first Law does not appply as they have no free will. This assumes the racial baseline not an expierienced NPC.

[zcthu3]

Thanks all.

I think I'm going to run with the whole these races counts as humans for Laws. Sure, most Orcs are evil in their behaviour but that's because they are an inherently violent race and because they are bought up serving a Dark God, not because they have no free will.

I am thinking, however, that I might give them a "this is a warning moment" if they kill a "non-human mortal". Basically they didn't intend to kill a mortal, but afterwards can realise what they've done. After that, they can get what's coming to them.

[Becq]

Yeah, orcs are a possible grey area, depending on your world.  In LotR, I'd tend toward saying they are a supernaturally crafted abomination and are therefore "not people".  In D&D, it's less clear.

Another thing to consider is that if your characters have been transported to a sufficiently different reality, then the same metaphysical laws may not even apply.

[zcthu3]

I'd thought about that.

I've decided that they do apply - each of the "other worlds" is a different versions of Earth. While things like the wardens and White Council don't exist in all worlds, the metaphysical Laws are the same, in fact its why so many powerful mages turn to evil, they start out with the best of intentions but by breaking those metaphysical Laws they become twisted mockeries of their former selfs. It's why the forces of "good" are so-often at a disadvantage...

[wolff96]

Yeah, orcs are a possible grey area, depending on your world.  In LotR, I'd tend toward saying they are a supernaturally crafted abomination and are therefore "not people".  In D&D, it's less clear.

It's even more confused than that, if he's talking about Midnight, specifically.  The Orcs were created after the Dark God fell, twisted into the abominations that they are from captive elves. 

Midnight can most easily be described as "Middle Earth, but Frodo failed."  It was  a deliberate choice by the developers.  They even have their own variant of Ringwraiths! 

[Becq]

It's even more confused than that, if he's talking about Midnight, specifically.  The Orcs were created after the Dark God fell, twisted into the abominations that they are from captive elves. 

Midnight can most easily be described as "Middle Earth, but Frodo failed."  It was  a deliberate choice by the developers.  They even have their own variant of Ringwraiths! 

I think that in that case, I'd go with classing them as monsters and/or abominations, and therefore not protected by the Laws.

[zcthu3]

Except that Orcs are also a playable PC race, and thus presumably capable of freewill.

Like all the 'Fae' races (Elves, Dwarves, Orcs etc.), they are not true Fae but rather something between Fae and Human. The "twisting" of the orcs is also not described in detail and while some level of magic is likely they are not Renfields; rather they are also result of centuries to millenia of selective breeding and indoctrination.

Even killing Renfields is considered a Grey Area under the First Law; Orcs have more freewill thus I have concluded killing them should be considered a breach, particularly as if killing Orcs is not considered a breach of the First Law, neither is killing Dwarves or Elves - they are all equally Fae in terms of the setting, just not as Fae are termed in Dresden,

[knnn]

I'd just like to point out that White Court Vampires and Ghouls are apparently fair game under the First Law, as well as playable characters.

[Becq]

Free will is not the only consideration.  The book (deliberately?) leaves it vague, as a combination of soul-possession, mortality, and free-will-possession.  The 'best' deciding factor seems to be the concept of 'personhood'.  Ie, is the target a 'person', or a 'moster'?  For example, it states that Fae do not have souls, yet Harry considers using coersion against Toot-Toot to be a grey area at best.  White Court vampires do not qualify for protection evn if they qualify as having free will and fight against their monstrous natures.  On the other hand, a human mass-murderer is still human, despite any acts of unbridaled evil he commits, and cannot be killed by magic without violating the First Law.

In vanilla Dresden, the various non-human races would probably be counted as minor Fae of some sort or other, or at least former natives of the Nevernever.  But then, this is more of an alternate reality (that is, a reality that is an alternate to the Dresdenverse's vanilla reality), so everything becomes a grey area, and therefore a GM's ruling.  I would classify the various races that were purely mortal and clean of supernatural taint to be 'people' and covered by the law (ex: Humans, Dwarves, Elves), and races that were partially or completely supernatural, or corrupted by the supernatural as 'other'.  Orcs could either be corrupted 'people' but nevertheless people, or they could be supernaturally-altered abominations.

[zcthu3]

I pretty much agree with the last poster, which is why I started this thread.

IMO Orcs are just as much 'human' as elves in MIDNIGHT. They have souls as their dead rise as Fell (Undead created as their souls cannot reach "heaven") as much as any of the other races, thus they fulfil that requirement. On the other hand, they were created from twisted dwarves. But then they breed true, being born etc. which is more 'human' again.

To comment on knnn's comments, while Ghouls are technically playable as a PC, they aren't encouraged as a PC type (no template) because they are monsters. WCV, on the other hand can resist their baser nature - and while they are still seen as monsters with regards to the Law they were also once human (as WC Virgins are basically human until they make their first kill). Ghouls were never human, and WCVamps are no longer human.

Orcs in MN, are a true breeding, souled race, with free-will. So are elves, dwarves, and humans. The only difference is that the original members of the Orc race were 'created' (magical manipulations of genetics?). Since then, in the millennia that has passed, they have bred large numbers - i.e. they are a true species. Given that, and that they have souls in the same way that the other multiple "person" races have, what makes them any different from those other races?

[wolff96]

IMO Orcs are just as much 'human' as elves in MIDNIGHT.

And since elves are immortal and inherently very powerful in the setting -- although most of them get slaughtered by the Shadow in the North long before they can enjoy all that time -- I don't consider them very 'human'.  Nor Orcs, personally. 

Orcs in MN, are a true breeding, souled race, with free-will. So are elves, dwarves, and humans. The only difference is that the original members of the Orc race were 'created' (magical manipulations of genetics?). Since then, in the millennia that has passed, they have bred large numbers - i.e. they are a true species. Given that, and that they have souls in the same way that the other multiple "person" races have, what makes them any different from those other races?

Their origin?  Honestly, a very good argument can be made either way, which is why this will come down to a GM's call. 

Another piece of evidence -- Orcs can produce cross-breeds with any race in Midnight...  except Humans, IIRC.  So does that make them more likely to get First Law treatment, or less? 

It's a completely different world, with some seriously different rules.  Personally, I would work with the players (and let them research/experiment in-character) to determine the truth for your game.  Letting them kill a bunch of charging, marauding Orcs that are out for blood, only to be sucker-punched with "oh, you're now a Lawbreaker 6x over" isn't cool.  You already mentioned up-thread that you would warn them -- I think that is, by far, the most important thing in the entire discussion.