Author Topic: Block, Counterspell and the like  (Read 5908 times)

Offline MijRai

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2010, 03:54:47 PM »
Heck, in the Shagnasty example, he is explicitly described as doing the shuffling steps of a sacred dance...  that's a dodge if I've ever heard of one, just described in a really cool way!  Then it's a straight shape-shifter battle after that.

Actually, it wasn't a dodge. It was a part of his defensive spell, when he summoned enough rain to drown turkeys. If I remember correctly, he was doing it in place, so it wasn't worth shiznit for a dodge. Ever hear of a rain dance? We saw one there.
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Offline Njal

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2010, 04:14:31 PM »
I would respectfully disagree with you on both examples.  I think these are classic blocks, with cool descriptions by the "GM".  None of the bad guys in question were doing well enough with their moves to punch through the blocks, but that's boring compared to a description of someone *actively* warding off attack.

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After all, would Cowl *really* have let Harry toss a car on him if he could have simply disrupted the Evocation?  If there were counterspells available, wouldn't
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I will have to disagree with you on the Ivy example. Harry says they are wearing her down by causing her to use up energy with each attack. If it was a block she could have been lounging around sneering at them.

You have a point about Cowl certainly and I can't remember enough about the Changes incident since my daughter ran off with my copy a while back after I had only read it once.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2010, 05:01:30 PM »
I think that this discussion reinforces the value of enchanted items.

Someone attacks Harry? He's got those enchanted items to fall back on.  I can't see him needing to take an action to use his duster and once his shield is up, it's up (acting either as armour or a block).  He rarely worries about counterspells because he trusts his defenses to handle things for him.

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Offline wolff96

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2010, 07:50:28 PM »
Actually, it wasn't a dodge. It was a part of his defensive spell, when he summoned enough rain to drown turkeys. If I remember correctly, he was doing it in place, so it wasn't worth shiznit for a dodge. Ever hear of a rain dance? We saw one there.

I was actually referring to the first part, when he kind of shuffles in place and 'somehow the blasts just missed him'.  I had forgotten the rain summoning in the next pass...  Guess that's what I get for posting at work.  :P

Offline Wolfwood2

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2010, 08:31:39 PM »
I think it makes fights between wizards more interesting if they're counterspelling each other.  It also reinforces the value of having allies along to attack while the group spellcaster tries to tie up the other guy's magic.

Therefore I'd allow counterspell blocks on the justification that it makes for superior gameplay rather than appealing to novel canon or trying to suss out the intent of the rules.

Offline Haru

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2010, 11:10:39 PM »
Thanks everyone for your contribution. I don't think enchanted items alone will work only so far. Sure an armour or a block can help, but I think infight counterspells can really add to a high power game.


As a houserule, I would do it like this:
Without the lore roll to determine how much power the spell was cast at, so the counterspeller is flying blind. He makes a counterspell evocation at a power he choses beforehand, done by the standard evocation rules, including mental stress. If he is not able to match the power of the spell with the power of his counterspell, the only thing he achieves is to lower the weapon rating of the spell, it still hits with the full discipline roll made plus the remaining power. If on the other hand the counterspeller is above the power of the incoming spell, he gets an extra stress per shift of power above the incoming spell, reflecting the power that is summoned yet unused . Plus, the counterspeller has to have his action waiting for a spell to counter, it is not a defence action.

So in my example from above:
Weapon:7
Discipline Roll: 10

The defending sorcerer tries to counter the attack. He doesn't think his opponent would go all in in the first round, so a counterspell:5 should do. He rolls a 6 on his discipline roll, so he can easily apply his will to the incoming attack. Unfortunately that only brings the powerlevel of the spell to a 2, which is still enough to inflict 12 physical stress combined with the shifts from the attack. As an evocation, the counterspell inflicts 1 base stress, because it is at the conviction of 5 (bonus from foci would apply) of the counterspelling sorcerer.

If he had gone with a counterspell:8 instead, it would have looked like this:
assuming he succeeds in his discipline roll, he overshot his counterspell by 1. He rips the incoming attack right out of existence, but now he has to deal with the backlash. First, he will get 1 base stress plus 3 for each level of power above his conviction. And 1 additional stress for the 1 power his counterspell is above the incoming attack. This results in 5 mental stress. Not cancelling the stress out to zero, but this is a hell of a lot better than in the example above.

You can wear yourself out by this quicker than if you would sling out spells yourself, but I think it is a good option. Maybe another rule to add 2 shifts to not cancel out a spell but redirect it. The rules above would still apply, so if you have an power 5 spell incoming, you would have to at least put 7 shifts into the spell to redirect it. Anything above that gives an extra stress as a standard counterspell would, but it does not increase the spells power. If the counterpower (power - 2 shifts for redirecting) is below the attacking spell the attackpower is just decreased as above, nothing is redirected. The redirection attempt has to be announced before the counterspell is cast.

And last but not least, I might go with the penalty for not knowing an evocation element, but I don't know if that really is necessary.

Oh and one absolutely last thought: the sight should cancel out the "flying blind" disadvantage, making it possible for the wizard to assess the power of the spell by a Lore roll. I was first thinking of just having him know the spells power without a roll if he activates the sight, but that would be too easy. Plus, that way the sight is not such a major advantage, so any wizard would still think twice about opening it up in a combat situation.

I would have to test this, but I like it so far.
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Offline Becq

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2010, 11:59:34 PM »
This was mentioned earlier, but it's probably worth stressing that your example represents what in other RPGs would be a 'critical hit'.  There's only a bit more than a 1% chance (ie, quite a bit less chance of getting a crit than in D&D) of that wizard getting the roll you saw there.  More often, it would average out to be a w:7 spell with a Discipline roll of 6 ... meaning that there's some backlash about to happen.  And there's just as much chance to get a 'critical failure' with a Discipline roll of 2 ... meaning someone is going to be suffering some consequences.  You also have a wizard that is highly optimized toward spellcasting ... and probably not so good at a lot of other things.

Also, keep in mind that with only four stress boxes and each spell costing at least 1 stress, there's a limit to how many opportunities there will be to try for that 1% crit chance.

Offline babel2uk

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2010, 07:51:36 AM »
I think it makes fights between wizards more interesting if they're counterspelling each other.

I'd have thought it actually makes it rather dull. I mean basically what you're going to have visually is two guys stood there yelling at each other (in whatever language they use to cast their spells) with little or nothing of interest really happening (I'd go as far as to say it would make magic mundane - which is a bit of a cardinal sin imho). I'd far rather have my spell casters dodging blasts of lighting, eldrich flames boiling off shields and generally a more action packed scene, it's more interesting to both play and GM.

Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series uses precisely this application of spell casters negating each others spells. The main wizard character actually states at one point that if the gifted are doing their job properly then the army will think they're just stood around doing nothing.

It would (as Becq says) be self limiting as you're only likely to be able to do a small number of counters, but it's likely to be visually deeply dullwhile you do those, and then you have to take consequences or Physical stress to cast your own spells.

Offline Belial666

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2010, 08:10:31 AM »
First of all, if the counterspell doesn't have enough shifts of Power to stop a spell, it fails outright and does nothing. If it has more power, the extra power causes Fallout. Counterspelling quickly is a bad idea...

Therefore I'd allow counterspell blocks on the justification that it makes for superior gameplay

Exchange 1: wizard A attacks and his spell is countered by wizard B. Wizard B attacks and his spell is countered by wizard A.
Exchange 2: wizard A attacks and his spell is countered by wizard B. Wizard B attacks and his spell is countered by wizard A.
Exchange 3: Both wizards have already run out of mental stress. The fight continues with fists.




So if counterspells are allowed, wizards will have energy for only 2 exchanges. What superior gameplay is that?

Offline MijRai

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2010, 04:17:44 PM »
Exchange 1: wizard A attacks and his spell is countered by wizard B. Wizard B attacks and his spell is countered by wizard A.
Exchange 2: wizard A attacks and his spell is countered by wizard B. Wizard B attacks and his spell is countered by wizard A.
Exchange 3: Both wizards have already run out of mental stress. The fight continues with fists.


So if counterspells are allowed, wizards will have energy for only 2 exchanges. What superior gameplay is that?

I'd work it out a bit better. Maybe make a counterspell cost more stress to do on the fly.
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Offline Haru

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2010, 04:37:21 PM »
Exchange 1: wizard A attacks and his spell is countered by wizard B. Wizard B attacks and his spell is countered by wizard A.
Exchange 2: wizard A attacks and his spell is countered by wizard B. Wizard B attacks and his spell is countered by wizard A.
Exchange 3: Both wizards have already run out of mental stress. The fight continues with fists.


Not exactly. In my houserule set the counterspell is an action, so Wizard B would have to have an initiative at least at the same level as wizard A in order to counterspell the attack and not used his action this exchange. Once that is done he would not be able to attack again in the same exchange.

But I get your point, and I didn't say this is final. I haven't played that much yet, and maybe the rules really only felt weird because of the increcible discipline roll. I might just get used to the game a bit more, and maybe the group setup wasn't the best to do that either. I think I will try both rules and see which way feels better to my style of playing.
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Offline Becq

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2010, 05:07:24 PM »
Generally speaking, use of skills is fluid, subject to providing an adequate 'excuse' explaining why the skill is appropriate.  For defense against spells, I think it's reasonable to allow evokers to use Discipline as a defense skill (I try to reshape the energy of his spell, redirecting it away from me).  This would be a pure defense roll, and would not create armor or block rating like a spell would, and cannot remove an established spell like a counterspell can, but also would not require drawing power (no stress cost).  Literally, you're just using Discipline instead of, say, Athletics, to defend.

Offline MijRai

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2010, 05:14:20 PM »
Generally speaking, use of skills is fluid, subject to providing an adequate 'excuse' explaining why the skill is appropriate.  For defense against spells, I think it's reasonable to allow evokers to use Discipline as a defense skill (I try to reshape the energy of his spell, redirecting it away from me).  This would be a pure defense roll, and would not create armor or block rating like a spell would, and cannot remove an established spell like a counterspell can, but also would not require drawing power (no stress cost).  Literally, you're just using Discipline instead of, say, Athletics, to defend.


I think it would require power, because you need to divert the power of the spell which is being cast by another.
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Offline Becq

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2010, 06:23:38 PM »
I think it would require power, because you need to divert the power of the spell which is being cast by another.
You could look at it that way.  Or you could say that you are merely 'controlling' power that has already been summoned from someone else.  For example, the rules allow you to redirect the power from your own shield spell into an attack; this does not require any stress to do -- only a control roll.  And from a game balance perspective, why should a spellflinger need to spend stress to justify a particular skill as being an appropriate defense, when a gunfighter is not?  Keep in mind that this is not a spell -- a real defense spell would give a lasting block rating or armor rating in addition to your defense, that would potentially last for multiple attacks).  Instead, this is just getting creative with how you describe your ability to defend against magical attacks.  I think this is most likely the best explanation for
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  I'm not sure, by the way, that specializations/focuses would apply to this use of Discipline.  If they did, you would need to use the specialization that matched the power drawn by the attacker for the spell.

A good example of the kind of justification I'm proposing here is on YS207, where a character is performing a maneuver to give himself a "Deep in Concentration" aspect to aid in picking a lock, and another character uses Guns as a defense skill to 'defend' against this maneuver.


Offline Belial666

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Re: Block, Counterspell and the like
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2010, 06:40:05 PM »
Such a use of Discipline requires a Stunt.