Author Topic: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)  (Read 12813 times)

Offline luminos

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2010, 07:43:00 PM »
Can we drop the talk about what its like and just get to a discussion of its mechanical effects?  If its a conjuration holding an evocation, you need to cast both the ritual for the conjuration, and the evocation.  On top of that, the evocation needs to be able to be described using the rules for evocation.  If we can settle on what it does with the system, you can then go on to describing how that effect will look when described in game, but right now, its just creating unnecessary confusion.
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Offline finnmckool

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2010, 07:45:35 PM »
Well the major confusion seems to be everyone keeps trying to give me a sword or a fire spell.

Here...let me put it to you this way...

I'm trying to LITERALLY create a lightsaber blade with magic. How can I BEST do that? What's the "hilt"? I don't know. What's the mechanical effect? I don't know. I want a lightsaber blade. Not a sword that's on fire. A lightsaber blade, and all that it does.

Best advice I've heard so far is an enchanted item that conjure's it for me, and swings like a weapon.


Offline luminos

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2010, 07:56:00 PM »
The enchanted item method is the way to go for something that works, mechanically, like a sword.  For something that mechanically works like a lightsaber, you'd need to invent mechanics for it.  This is why I've said a few times to make a custom power.  For -2 refresh, you can justify having a sword of fire that you can always use for that kind of stuff, and it will be as powerful as the basic Fuego spell.  For -3 refresh, you can justify using that sword to block things that even normal swords cant do.  This is by far the most elegant solution for an NPC character.  For a PC to have this, you'd need to do a conjuration for a sword effect, and a very high cost ritual to transform the PC to mimic the use of a stunt to be able to block bullets with a fire sword, and its all downhill from there if you want to make it even more flexible.

Edit:  Alternative solution:  Give him the footwork stunt for weapons.  Then just do a basic sword conjuration, color it as being a lightsaber, and you can still do most of what you want.  Dodging gunshots can just be colored as using the sword to stop them.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 08:03:38 PM by luminos »
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Offline finnmckool

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2010, 08:17:22 PM »
Well again, you guys are focused on this thing stopping projectiles, and I really don't see how that matters at all, as anything stronger than the thing it's stopping can stop anything. What exactly are the mechanics I'm missing? I'm conjuring a lightsaber. It's like conjuring a sword only it's not a sword...it's better.

How about this...I conjure a lightsaber. Literally. In the same way the axe I conjure does more damage than the sword, that I've conjured a lightsaber, literally, means it would do more damage. A stick with another stick made out of flames on it. I can do with it anything I can do with a conjured sword, including block bullets, parry attacks, or whatever with a weapons skill. So it's a weapon: whatever so therefore it'll be a discipline: whatever to conjure. Is there a problem with making it that stupidly easy? It's not a weapon:3 because it's not a sword, and the fire's not flavor. It's a lightsaber so it's damage is loads higher. Wouldn't that work? Doesn't matter about it's mechanical components, because I'm not trying to conjure them. It has a blade because I made the blade. Because that's all a conjured sword is.

Offline luminos

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2010, 09:22:20 PM »
If I am reading you correctly, what you want is something the has all the benefits of a sword, except that it has a bunch of extra stuff as well, but its not any harder to create than a sword.  Is this correct?  I want to say right now that you can not do that with the rules as written.  You have to house rule it, and there are real ethical issues with doing this as a GM when you plan to use these abilities as a player later on.
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Offline finnmckool

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2010, 10:43:37 PM »
No, I want something that is a sword, but has a lot of other benefits as well, because it's better than a sword, and I want it to be appropriately harder to make, by adding shifts.

Offline luminos

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2010, 12:04:49 AM »
Alright, here is a quick guess of what it might cost to do that as a conjuration in complexity.  The base cost for conjuring an item without doing anything special is usually around 3 complexity.  To make the conjuration have the intensity of the Fuego spell, I'd add a whole lot of shifts on top of that, but just as a guess, lets say it adds 5 complexity to make it a weapon 4 item.  Then we also want to make it have the qualities of fire so that it can't be blocked with weapons or fists, so another 2 or 3 shifts of complexity.  Then on top of that you want it to be able to block bullets and other ranged attacks that weapons can't do.  There are two ways to pull this off.  Treat it as a standard evocation block that gets activated separately, which will be however many shifts you want the block strength to be and how long you want it to last.  The other way is to have it grant you the ability to use your weapons skill to block stuff weapons can't normally block.  This would be prohibitively expensive, as its basically the same effect as a full on transformation of the caster to let him temporarily have a stunt he doesn't have.  10-12 shifts of complexity as a baseline, and maybe higher than that for this effect. 

So there you go.  It only takes about a 16 - 26 strength enchanted item to do this effect, depending on which method you are aiming for.  You'll need to blow umpteen million refinement on enchanted item slots, as well as have a lore of 8+, but its what you want. 

The alternative of a custom power is not only cheaper, but it requires less rules abuse to use.
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Offline finnmckool

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2010, 01:35:52 AM »
Most of that I'm fine with but I really don't understand why you think it'll cost a bunch to block bullets when A: a long sword can block a bullet, a person can't move it fast enough to intercept. You really can't argue that. The ability to block projectiles has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with your calculations. NOTHING. Nothing nothing nothing nothing. Forget blocking projectiles. Put it from your mind. B: no. there is no b. That's it.

The only "defensive" capabillities I need this to have is to be able to roll a weapons skill to defend against a melee weapon, and maybe be able to sunder the crap out of your metal sword with my non-metal sword. I wanna be able to parry with it, which ruins your blade. Why is that so crazy? What's so nuts about that? It's a melee weapon? I wanna make a melee weapon that's loads stronger. But ya know what? I got it. I'm just gonna make it a simple two roll thing. Discipline=Conviction for power+3+time. Done.

Offline CableRouter

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2010, 11:20:10 PM »
Again, it's not an actual sword. It's a bar of fire. So it could conceivably block whatever a thick bar of magic fire could block i would think. Remember, a light saber is NOT a sword, and I'm trying to make a lightsaber. Not a sword. And a sword CAN block a bullet, it's the PERSON who can't do it. It's certainly possible for someone in this game to be able to intercept projectiles, even bullets. Likely? No. But we are talking about magic here.
  Per the books, magic doesn't work that way.  Let's say you cast a magic spell to make you super strong and you lift a car up over your head.  A fraction of a second later your are crushed because your bones and ligaments can't support a car.  You start swinging your sword around at 2,000 miles per hour and you'll rip your arms off.

Not to mention that a bar of fire hot enough to vaporize a bullet in 1/5000th of a second (the amount of time it would take a bullet to pass through it) is going to radiate enough heat to broil the wielder and set everything around him on fire.

Offline JustinS

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2010, 03:35:44 PM »
Why is it harder? Because lightsabers don't actually exist, and their effect is a major power drain.

If I was going to do it, I'd call it 'conjure a big scary sword' complexity 3 for weapon 3, and then as many 'its a lightsaber', 'no really it cuts through that' and the like maneuvers on top of that, and let the user pick when to tag them.


Offline ironchicken

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2010, 04:32:06 PM »
Luminos is around correct to conjure.

There are 4 options as I see it

1 create an item using a number of item slots that has a conjuration spell to make a "game mechanically" normal sword, the energy glow etc are just colour. The sword will have a number of uses per session. You may be able to get some little boosts within the standard rules. An aspect "my glowing power sword" can be evoked for special effects.
2 Design a sword as an item of power with the GM the number of refresh it costs will depend on the capabilities of the sword. The types of things you have been talking about (acting as a catch etc) would give it a power similar to a sword of the cross at around 3 refresh.
3 Just consider the sword a manoeuvre meaning it is a simple evocation. This can be tagged for effects in use.
4 House-rule something

Offline wyvern

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2010, 05:13:25 PM »
Here's how I'd do it.

Step one: Put an aspect on your character sheet; something like "I've got a lightsaber!" - this lets you spend a fate point any time you need to do something really cool with it, and, conversely, gives you fate points when what you really needed was a crowbar and a real sword would've been a better choice - or when you need to convince someone that you come in peace, unarmed, and the guys you're talking to know better.

Step two: Buy an appropriate sponsored magic - maybe you've cut a deal with Pele (Hawaiian goddess of fire); maybe you just found a nice fire-aspected ley line nearby and spent the time and effort to learn how to tap into that and cart its power around with you.  Lots of options available here.  As an added bonus, this provides an instant explanation for some PC going "Why can't I do that?", as well as a good source of possible quest material if said PC decides they really want to be able to replicate this trick.

Step three: Conjure the sword.  This can be done as an evocation, thanks to sponsored magic.
For a weapon: 2 blade (i.e. your average sword), it's a complexity 3 thaumaturgy spell, which translates to a power 3 evocation, and it'll naturally last until sunrise.  Of course, you want something more impressive than that, and you don't need quite so much duration; I'd probably give you weapon: 3 for a scene as a complexity 5 conjuration - that's on par with Item of Power type swords, which is about where it ought to be.
Then, since it's thaumaturgy, you start adding maneuvers; three more complexity for every aspect you want to put on the blade.  Put on as many of these as you can afford.

In combat, you start off by just using it as a sword and taking your free tags on those aspects when you need to make it do something special; if the free tags run out, you can cast again to "reinforce" the blade (since it's already conjured, this'd just be however many maneuvers you want at 3 power per each, which you can do for sure thanks, again, to sponsored magic).
Or you can start spending fate points to invoke your "I've got a lightsaber!" aspect for effect.  I'd require that if you want to do something really dramatic, like melt the steel weapon someone tried to parry with (remember, the star wars universe is full of non-lightsaber melee weapons that seem to be capable of parrying a lightsaber just fine.  And while parrying will certainly *damage* a metal blade, it takes quite a lot of heat indeed to render one instantly broken.)

You don't actually need a handle, though were I statting up such a character, I'd definitely make a "lightsaber handle" as a focus item for fire evocations.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 05:18:12 PM by wyvern »

Offline wyvern

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2010, 05:24:37 PM »
And a note on things like "can't be disarmed" - if someone tries to disarm this thing and fails, no problem; if they would succeed, tag or invoke an appropriate aspect; if that won't give you enough of a bonus, then clearly they managed to actually hit your hand, or succeeded in knocking your lightsaber handle focus item out of your grasp, or something like that.  Just because they can't do a conventional "hit the blade hard enough to make you drop it" doesn't mean they can't disarm it at all ever.

Offline CMEast

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2010, 05:54:49 PM »
Plus, Jedi are constantly being disarmed (or dis-handed) throughout the films, it's a common theme.

Offline finnmckool

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Re: The Lightsaber Spell.. :o ::)
« Reply #74 on: August 06, 2010, 03:12:17 AM »
Yeah that last part I completely agree with!