Author Topic: Making my head hurt  (Read 4366 times)

Offline onetime

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Making my head hurt
« on: July 20, 2010, 11:46:14 PM »
I used to run a Unisystem Dresden Game with a group of friends.  Recently we all decided to use the official RPG and start an entirely new game.  I brought the books, I'm reading "Our Story" as much as possible, and all I can say is: my head hurts.  Is there anything anyone can tell me that is concrete in things like Aspects, Items of Power, were-forms, themes and troubles.  It all seems far too loose to me, far too much improv. night instead of game night.  Please, if anyone can help I would be very thankful, I want this to work with my old group but right now I'm banging my head off my desk whenever anyone asks a question because I cannot find a concrete answer.

Offline Baron Hazard

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2010, 11:50:10 PM »
if you need everythign strictly confined and rules-lawyered within an inch of its life. DFRPG and Fate is not for you. I can't really help out more than to say that, the game is really very open ended, light system with a 'sand-box mode' group narrative style. I love the system, and its perhaps the most simple system i've come across at its core. If your getting confused its because your overthinking it.

perhaps if you provided some of the questions you have, it'd be easier for us to grasp why your having issues?

Offline Ophidimancer

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 11:54:07 PM »
Hmm ... the FATE system generally has story and narrative trumping mechanics.  The most concrete thing you'll probably find is the Difficulty Ladder.

When you have something like Aspects, though, with the ability to completely bypass a roll in favor of a narrative outcome, you're really looking at a system that emphasizes things happening for character or plot reasons rather than because of a dice roll.

Sorry, the basis of the system is about story, not about mechanics, so it has inherently less concrete rules and more abstract ones.

Offline onetime

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2010, 12:29:31 AM »
The main thing that is killing me is trying to figure out how to make one of my player's character concepts work.  We're playing chest deep power level and he wants a Priestly True Faith character with some Focused Pract. like skills through an item of power.  I've been trying to get his ideas to work, but no matter what it just makes him either too strong, too weird or just too over-complicated. Add to that the rather non-existent rules to actually creating an item of power and it makes me just want to tell him "no" he can't have that kind of character.

Offline Baron Hazard

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2010, 12:38:37 AM »
so the player wants to play a character thats too powerful for the setting you want to run and you fault the system?

Chest-Deep. -8 refresh

Bless This House [-1]
Guide My Hand [-1]
Holy Touch [-1]
Righteousness [-2]
Item of Power: Staff [+2]
 * Evocation [-3]

(or channeling: Spirit. or whatever) [-2] staff would only give a +1 rebate since an ability has to cost something.

Total so far is -6. that gives him 1 extra refresh for an extra fate point or a stunt or random ability should he want it.




Offline luminos

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2010, 01:05:18 AM »
The main thing that is killing me is trying to figure out how to make one of my player's character concepts work.  We're playing chest deep power level and he wants a Priestly True Faith character with some Focused Pract. like skills through an item of power.  I've been trying to get his ideas to work, but no matter what it just makes him either too strong, too weird or just too over-complicated. Add to that the rather non-existent rules to actually creating an item of power and it makes me just want to tell him "no" he can't have that kind of character.

My suggestion would be for everyone in the group to start off doing something simple.  Just stick to the character templates until you get enough experience with the system to figure out how to price things like items of power.  Just focus on aspects, stunts, skills, and whatever powers the characters template explicitly allows for starting off.  When you get the feel for how FATE works, start experimenting.
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Offline DesertCoyote

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 01:22:09 AM »
My suggestion would be for everyone in the group to start off doing something simple.  Just stick to the character templates until you get enough experience with the system to figure out how to price things like items of power.  Just focus on aspects, stunts, skills, and whatever powers the characters template explicitly allows for starting off.  When you get the feel for how FATE works, start experimenting.

Ditto.  My group is coming from D&D and Exalted.  We're on our third campaign and still haven't figured everything out yet... if in doubt, go with whatever sounds cool.  We actually just got to making new items of power and focus items this campaign, although one of my players has been toting Teddy Roosevelt's rifle since our first game.

Offline luminos

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2010, 01:24:15 AM »
I used to run a Unisystem Dresden Game with a group of friends.  Recently we all decided to use the official RPG and start an entirely new game.  I brought the books, I'm reading "Our Story" as much as possible, and all I can say is: my head hurts.  Is there anything anyone can tell me that is concrete in things like Aspects, Items of Power, were-forms, themes and troubles.  It all seems far too loose to me, far too much improv. night instead of game night.  Please, if anyone can help I would be very thankful, I want this to work with my old group but right now I'm banging my head off my desk whenever anyone asks a question because I cannot find a concrete answer.

What specific things do you want to know about Aspects, IoPs, were-forms, themes and troubles?  I know some of the system can be hard to wrap your head around at first, because it is so abstract.  But once you get it, it really hums.  The system is not free-form improv, although if you are coming from a dice heavy system, I can see where you get that impression.  The system is designed so that dice are only rolled if something interesting will happen as a result, so you aren't going to be rolling handfuls of dice when it wouldn't make a difference to what happens in the story.  Aspects, by being compelled and invoked, give a way for the story to override the dice when the players decide it is dramatically appropriate, so the system definitely favors an element of narrativism, but aspect use can be gamed (gaming them requires the players be creative about what they are and how they are used, rather than number crunching) so the system can reward gamism as well, and it makes a beautiful fusion where the two creative agendas can be allowed to overlap.  The gamist will serve the interests of the narrativist, because his creativity and willingness to contribute to the imaginative space of the game will be his best methods of "winning" and the narrativist serves the interests of the gamist because all of his creative stuff gets rewarded with in game benefits.
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Offline Morgan

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2010, 01:27:56 AM »
Coming at this from another angle, how would you stat the character concept with the Unisystem? If you find that system easier to create the character's abilities, stat it out with that and maybe we can get an idea of what you're shooting for and help convert it to the Dresden Files RPG system. The Item of Power rules can be a bit tough especially if you're new to the system. That said it's possible the rules won't create the character at that power level, and the concept or at least the powers might have to be tweaked.

Offline onetime

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2010, 02:36:15 PM »
My suggestion would be for everyone in the group to start off doing something simple.  Just stick to the character templates until you get enough experience with the system to figure out how to price things like items of power.  Just focus on aspects, stunts, skills, and whatever powers the characters template explicitly allows for starting off.  When you get the feel for how FATE works, start experimenting.

With the exception of that one guy, everyone pretty much has.  I have a werecat and a Knight of a Faerie Court (Erlking kind of has a court). 

Ditto.  My group is coming from D&D and Exalted.  We're on our third campaign and still haven't figured everything out yet... if in doubt, go with whatever sounds cool.  We actually just got to making new items of power and focus items this campaign, although one of my players has been toting Teddy Roosevelt's rifle since our first game.

Just wanted to say, I love the idea of Teddy Roosevelt's rifle being an item of power.

What specific things do you want to know about Aspects, IoPs, were-forms, themes and troubles?  I know some of the system can be hard to wrap your head around at first, because it is so abstract.  But once you get it, it really hums.  The system is not free-form improv, although if you are coming from a dice heavy system, I can see where you get that impression.  The system is designed so that dice are only rolled if something interesting will happen as a result, so you aren't going to be rolling handfuls of dice when it wouldn't make a difference to what happens in the story.  Aspects, by being compelled and invoked, give a way for the story to override the dice when the players decide it is dramatically appropriate, so the system definitely favors an element of narrativism, but aspect use can be gamed (gaming them requires the players be creative about what they are and how they are used, rather than number crunching) so the system can reward gamism as well, and it makes a beautiful fusion where the two creative agendas can be allowed to overlap.  The gamist will serve the interests of the narrativist, because his creativity and willingness to contribute to the imaginative space of the game will be his best methods of "winning" and the narrativist serves the interests of the gamist because all of his creative stuff gets rewarded with in game benefits.

Were-forms:  Are they limited to human to beast or is a more Terra West option allowed?

Items of Power:  Really this is more of a thing were a how-to would be awesome.  The book is very vague in what an item of power can and cannot be (not literally "it can be a gun but not a rubber ducky").  The book says minor abilities and certain other abilities, but ... what would those abilities be?

Themes, Troubles and Aspects all fit into the same problem for me, which is basically the same problem every kid runs into while playing cops and robbers ("bang, bang! I shot you!"  "Did not!" "Did too!").  So the question for this was really, how do I make these things flexible but concrete?

Coming at this from another angle, how would you stat the character concept with the Unisystem? If you find that system easier to create the character's abilities, stat it out with that and maybe we can get an idea of what you're shooting for and help convert it to the Dresden Files RPG system. The Item of Power rules can be a bit tough especially if you're new to the system. That said it's possible the rules won't create the character at that power level, and the concept or at least the powers might have to be tweaked.

Really it couldn't.  The larger array of character types was really what drew us to the official version of the game (well that and wanting to support The Dresden Files and Butcher).  In the previous game it was a human P.I. and two Wardens tasked with keeping a town in Alaska safe from a weak Veil, rampaging Yetis, and a resurgence of 3-eye.

Offline Bruce Coulson

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2010, 03:02:29 PM »
re Tera West:  no reason why more of them can't exist.  (One prospective player wants to do this, actually.)  The 'Wolwere' exists in the game universe, so if someone wants to give it a try, let them.

A japanese hengeyokai could be a nice addition to any game, actually; a cross between a were and a changeling in attitude and powers.

The FATE (tm) system can be daunting, especially for players used to the nice rules and limits set by most other systems out there.  It's more about players limiting themselves to stay true to their characters and genre, rather than arbitrary rules saying 'you can't do that'.  Whereas in many other systems, players often take 'disadvantages' to tweak their characters and then try to ignore those limits, in FATE players are encouraged to play and remind the GM about their limits. 
You're the spirit of a nation, all right.  But it's NOT America.

Offline CMEast

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2010, 03:10:49 PM »
Were-forms:  Are they limited to human to beast or is a more Terra West option allowed?

I assume Terra West can shapechange into lots of different creatures? Or can change in to some kind of elemental form?

I would say Beast Shape could cost [-1] for one animal, [-2] for 3 animals (or any type of one kind of animal) and maybe [-3] for any animal as [-4] is True Shapeshifting. However this cost only covers the skill changes, things like claws, strength and size must come from further investments of refresh.
For instance:
[-2] Beast Shapes
[-7] Modular Abilities (Wings, Claws, Aquatic, Diminutive Size, Hulking Size, Inhuman Strength/Toughness/Speed)
This character can become a Wolf, a Falcon and a Whale :)

Turning in to elementals or anything else is even easier.

Offline WillH

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2010, 03:19:46 PM »
The thing you need to remember is it is almost impossible to break the system. A character has an aspect that's so broad it can be used in almost any situation. Well, the character only has so many fate points to invoke it with. What powers can be tied to an item of power? Any of them, you still have to pay the refresh minus the discount, and they now have the disadvantage of being tied to a object that can be messed with. Someone wants to play something not covered by a template, or have powers in addition to a template? Let them, as long as they can afford the refresh cost. Just trust your gut and go with it.

Offline Morgan

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2010, 03:55:21 PM »
Were-forms:  Are they limited to human to beast or is a more Terra West option allowed?

Usually there is only the character's human form and the one animal form, but that said there are a couple of ways to come at a shape shifter character. In my all werewolf convention game, I have four Alpha style human werewolves, a Wolfwere like Tara West, and even a Changeling who's faerie parent was a Pooka, but all the characters have the exact same powers mechanically. There are a lot of different types of wereforms in the Dresden Files just look at all the different types that get revealed in Fool Moon. If you want a character who has a variety of animal shapes as well as human forms the best way to do that is probably True Shapeshifting combined with Modular Abilities.

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Items of Power:  Really this is more of a thing were a how-to would be awesome.  The book is very vague in what an item of power can and cannot be (not literally "it can be a gun but not a rubber ducky").  The book says minor abilities and certain other abilities, but ... what would those abilities be?

The minor abilities can be just about any of the other powers in the book, or a combination of one or two minor Stunt level abilities could be considered a minor power for the purposes of refresh cost for the item. The guidelines for creating Stunts and Powers should serve you pretty well for any such minor abilities you want to create on your own.

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Themes, Troubles and Aspects all fit into the same problem for me, which is basically the same problem every kid runs into while playing cops and robbers ("bang, bang! I shot you!"  "Did not!" "Did too!").  So the question for this was really, how do I make these things flexible but concrete?

All Aspects are just descriptive phrases on your character sheet that help define your character, they are already very flexible the way to make them concrete is to spend fate points on them or compel them to gain fate points. Until the Fate Point economy is engaged with them they don't do anything mechanically.

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Really it couldn't.  The larger array of character types was really what drew us to the official version of the game (well that and wanting to support The Dresden Files and Butcher).  In the previous game it was a human P.I. and two Wardens tasked with keeping a town in Alaska safe from a weak Veil, rampaging Yetis, and a resurgence of 3-eye.

Okay, I was trying to get a sense of what powers you and the player want the holy character to have. We've seen Baron Hazard's attempt to stat up a generic holy sorcerer with an item of power, and it looks pretty good to me, but what do you and your player want this character to do? The attempt to get it statted out in Unisystem was a way to see what you wanted with a system you already knew.

Offline onetime

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Re: Making my head hurt
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2010, 09:20:40 PM »
As to the character in question the item of power looks (so far) something like this:

Prayer beads of Saint James -3

Item of Power Discount: +2
Holy: See Sword of the Cross -0
Inhuman recovery: -2
Removable Item Catch (your Inhuman Recovery only works so long as you possess the item and it is touching your skin):+1
Ritual ("Exorcising" beings of the Nevernever +1 to conviction when attempting to force all non-Faerie Court Fey (i.e. Seelie and Unseelie will laugh at you) back into the Nevernever) -2

I think the final cost is a bit too low given the abilities it grants, personally, behind that cost fit.