McAnally's (The Community Pub) > Display Case
DISPROVE THIS
Shecky:
BP, if I'm reading correctly, I believe you're misunderstanding what Curly's saying. He's saying that th impulse IS in ALL of us (or close enough to all as not to matter). The only thing stopping most people is the probability of punishment, NOT because they "wouldn't do it" - they don't want to face what would happen if they got caught.
svb1972:
--- Quote from: Shecky on June 02, 2010, 06:52:55 PM ---BP, if I'm reading correctly, I believe you're misunderstanding what Curly's saying. He's saying that th impulse IS in ALL of us (or close enough to all as not to matter). The only thing stopping most people is the probability of punishment, NOT because they "wouldn't do it" - they don't want to face what would happen if they got caught.
--- End quote ---
I disagree. There are things I won't do. Not because I'm afraid of the punishment, but because I genuinely think they're wrong.
I think many people have things they won't do on principle
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: svb1972 on June 02, 2010, 07:01:15 PM ---I disagree. There are things I won't do. Not because I'm afraid of the punishment, but because I genuinely think they're wrong.
I think many people have things they won't do on principle
--- End quote ---
..there must be some way of tying this back to Harry somehow, but I just can't put my finger on it...
Shecky:
--- Quote from: svb1972 on June 02, 2010, 07:01:15 PM ---I disagree. There are things I won't do. Not because I'm afraid of the punishment, but because I genuinely think they're wrong.
I think many people have things they won't do on principle
--- End quote ---
Not my point; I did say "most". While I should have added "much of the time", my point still stands - I would be willing to wager my income for the next five years that the majority of "bad", illegal or downright evil acts for which people refuse to indulge the impulse are avoided not out of moral/ethical principle but out of fear of punishment. The human being is not an inherently moral or ethical creature - those are constructs provided us by civilization. Some we recognize as a good thing and absorb wholeheartedly, while the rest we adopt as a matter of practicality (i.e., to avoid society's punishment).
In short, that "line" that most people won't cross is most likely NOT at as high an altitude that they would have the rest of us believe... or would have THEMSELVES believe.
Curly:
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM ---
Dude. Really. Cmon. Youre making a big deal out of something thats small.
--- End quote ---
If I were making a big deal out of something small, I would start using provocative language, ad hominem attacks, rude capitalisation. I would stop using terms like "I believe, I feel, I think, it may be that". If I were to make a very big deal out of it, I may, possibly, even point to my sig and explicitly say it was non-applicable for this post. But it is applicable.
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM --- You made a blanket statement that I disproved.
--- End quote ---
Without getting into accepted standards of proof, subjectivity and relativity and such, I stated an opinion which you seem to be taking issue with. You haven't disproved as far as I can see, and although I don't think it's likely that you'll disprove it, I would like to hear, in a detailed explanation, why you disagree.
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM ---People don't use any means available to accomplish any goal.
--- End quote ---
The word I used was "whatsoever" which is generally defined as something in the ballpark of " one or some or every or all without specification". I did not say "all people, use every means in every case to get what they want". I have not said this, which is why you telling me that "all people use every means in every case" is not true, reads to me as a non-sequitur.
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM ---What you describe (will commit any action or use any means to accomplish any goal that strikes their fancy)
--- End quote ---
This is not what I described
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM --- is a classic sociopath.
--- End quote ---
It is. It is not, however, what I described. I was talking about psychopaths. A term which I believe has fallen into disuse among respectable psychologists, but which is usually taken to mean a person who feels little empathy for other or who enjoys making others suffer.
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM --- Someone completely without restraint. For them the simple fact that they CAN do something means they are entitled to do it, should they wish to.
--- End quote ---
What a sociopath appears to be.
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM ---This is not the case for normal people (ie those without a serious psychological disorder).
--- End quote ---
While I don't agree with this, it isn't relevant to what I said, so I won't comment upon it.
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM ---However according to your logic (that people always use every available method to accomplish getting what they want)
--- End quote ---
That is almost, but not quite, exactly what I did not say.
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM ---Ive just described using all things in my power (simply taking it even though it doesn't belong to me and Ive no money to purchase it, and beating up the rightful owner when he tries to stop me) to get what I want (in this case a delicious klondike bar).
--- End quote ---
Which is cool, but not relevant.
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM ---Are you seeing the problem now?
--- End quote ---
Yes. You appear not to understand the distinction between [ANY] as found in most dictionaries and [ALL] as found in most dictionaries.
--- Quote from: ballplayer72 on June 02, 2010, 06:45:16 PM --- You can tell by how society generally functions and doesn't revert to state of nature. (which is kinda what youre talking about, but not really applicable if youre talking about any group of humans that exist as a society and not as individual animals beating each other with rocks for survivial.)
--- End quote ---
The existence of society is to my mind indicative of the fact the people are bastards, psychopaths, disgusting savage animals - but ones who have the rationality to agree not to kill each other because they understand that most of us can dish out much more than we can take.
People use seduction, lies, fear, suspicion etc to gain advantages. They make people feel bad, sometimes for personal gain, sometimes for nothing more than the pleasure of seeing a person cry. I think most of us are like that. Maybe you don't, do you?
Which is why I think that gaining power won't fundamentally change a person, it will simply reveal who s/he really is.
I think Harry is a person who genuinely cares about people, which is why I would not object to his acquire great power, and trust him to use it with great responsibility.
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