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At Evocation speeds and methods

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luminos:
I'm in a debate about some of the effects about sponsored magic and I'm looking for opinions.  The debate is on what it means to cast spells that would normally be thaumaturgy, but due to sponsorship, can be cast at evocation speeds and methods.  One side interprets this to mean that the spell still counts as thaumaturgy, is cast as quickly as an evocation, and uses complexity bonuses from that field of thaumaturgy to increase the amount of power that can safely be used.  The other side interprets this to mean that the spell has the effects from that field of thaumaturgy (including duration), but is effectively treated as an evocation and uses power bonuses to help cast it but not complexity bonuses.  Both sides agree on the issue of duration and letting control bonuses for that kind of thaumaturgy helping the spell casting.

Looking for opinions, arguments and so on.

KOFFEYKID:
The other portion of the debate deals with whether or not a thaumaturgy spell cast with the speeds and methods of evocation follow the thaumaturgy rules about shifts of power up to your conviction not incurring mental stress.

I argue that bonuses to complexity apply because otherwise it penalizes sponsored magic users by requiring them to take refinement for both power and complexity. None of the Kemmlerian Necromancers in OW have bonuses to Control, Complexity, and Power for necromancy, and you think that they would if specializations in complexity did not aid in casting K. Necromancy with the "Speeds and Methods" of evocation.

I argue that if the duration of thaumaturgy spells remains intact (ie, the ability to create wards as mentioned in the side bar on page 288 would be quite useless if you had to pay for each exchange and not base it off the duration of thaumaturgy wards in general), then the mental stress = 0 (if complexity is below your conviction + control) should also remain intact.

Korwin:

--- Quote from: luminos on April 27, 2010, 04:14:40 PM ---One side interprets this to mean that the spell still counts as thaumaturgy, is cast as quickly as an evocation, and uses complexity bonuses from that field of thaumaturgy to increase the amount of power that can safely be used.
--- End quote ---

Thats my reading of the rules.


--- Quote from: KOFFEYKID on April 27, 2010, 04:25:13 PM ---then the mental stress = 0 (if complexity is below your conviction + control) should also remain intact.

--- End quote ---

And thats my explanation, why Harry is able to use so much magic (the quantity) in the later books.

Deadmanwalking:
Yeah, Thaumaturgy isn't an Element, so there's no real way to get power bonuses to it. And I'd personally say that Complexity does for Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation exactly what it does for other Thaumaturgy...allow higher Complexity effects without prep-work or Aspects. Heck, that's even more useful if you're doing it as Evocation.

Yes, this does mean that the Mental Stress may get a little high from exceeding your Conviction from doing this too much (especially if you're good at the variety of Thaumaturgy you're using and going all out), but that seems fairly appropriate. On the other hand, since there are no indications of a base cost ala Evocation, it won't be likely to be as bad as all that.

luminos:

--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on April 27, 2010, 05:02:48 PM ---Yeah, Thaumaturgy isn't an Element, so there's no real way to get power bonuses to it. And I'd personally say that Complexity does for Thaumaturgy-as-Evocation exactly what it does for other Thaumaturgy...allow higher Complexity effects without prep-work or Aspects. Heck, that's even more useful if you're doing it as Evocation.

Yes, this does mean that the Mental Stress may get a little high from exceeding your Conviction from doing this too much (especially if you're good at the variety of Thaumaturgy you're using and going all out), but that seems fairly appropriate. On the other hand, since there are no indications of a base cost ala Evocation, it won't be likely to be as bad as all that.

--- End quote ---

So you would be okay with allowing an unlimited number of these thaumaturgy at evocation speed spells that are below conviction never causing stress?

I'm basing most of my argument on the specific wording of part of the orange box on YS 288.  The part I'm latching onto says "With the power source, you get access to the listed set of thaumaturgic effects (often a thematic grouping of some sort) as a viable effect of an evocation spell."

I'm interpreting this to mean that you are still using evocation, but that the things you do with it have the effects of the thaumaturgical spell.  The element being used would be the element granted (or supercharged) by the sponsored magic.

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