The Dresden Files > DFRPG

Problem Stunts

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Moriden:
linking to another thread with a similar theme. http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17651.20.html

iago:

--- Quote from: Moriden on April 26, 2010, 05:08:43 PM ---linking to another thread with a similar theme. http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17651.20.html

--- End quote ---

I ain't gotten to Claws yet, though I am likely to do my "middle road" thing I mentioned there.

Victim:

--- Quote from: iago on April 26, 2010, 04:22:13 PM ---

No Pain, No Gain: You can take a bunch of punishment before it starts to add up. You may take one additional mild physical consequence (page 203).

(This is a rare case of a broadly applicable stunt, but consequences by their nature are expendable, which is where the justification for going broad comes from. But yes, we've cut it down from two milds to one because of that broad application.)


--- End quote ---

Doesn't that seem a bit weak?  I can see weakening Resilient Self Image, since casters can use their Mild Mentals as ammo pretty often - other characters tend not to take so much self inflicted damage.  However, it seems like most stunts (except attack boosters like Target Rich Environment) provide a situational bonus roughly equivalent to +2 - which cleverly works out to be the same that provided situationally by invoking an Aspect with a Fate Point.  So the stunt becomes worth the refresh when you can use it often, as opposed to just using the Fate point once per session.  Stunts that a character isn't going to use more than once per session aren't worth the refresh in most cases.

But there's a limit to how often you get to use an extra Consequence slot, since it can take a few scenes for even mild damage to recover (without fancy powers).  If you're not using it more than once a session, the stunt is roughly equivalent to just spending a Fate point on a defense roll.  A full +2 there will at worst knock off 2 levels of damage (the same as minor consequence), and may turn an attack into a full miss (which can prevent a lot more damage with high Weapon values).  Granted, Fate point spending may be less efficient since you might already be invoking your useful aspect.  On the other hand, taking a consequence gives your opponent a free tag on it, so it can be less useful than simply taking 2 less damage.

Moreover, the stunt is already somewhat situational in that most characters don't choose to take lots of damage (I already mentioned the exception of spellcasters, who do take damage to fuel their stuff).  Stuff that works in a situation you control or initiate tends to be more useful than something that depends on the other guy.  Especially if it depends on the other guy kicking your ass.  :)  It's generally a good idea to avoid that sort of thing.

While the extra consequence stunts are broadly desirable in that most characters could potentially use greater resilience, they don't really seem like must haves.  It doesn't seem like a huge problem if there were some mortal stunts that everyone wished they had, as opposed to a bunch of "well, if that's your thing..." abilities.

Even a 2 consequence No Pain, No Gain, seems more than 1 refresh worse than Inhuman Toughness, the closest supernatural competition. 

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Personally, I feel like there's a huge a difference in utility between a stunt giving a situational bonus to one of a character's best skills - especially a skill at the cap level! - and the same situational bonus to a weaker skill.  If you picked something as Great or Superb, you probably plan on using it quite a bit already.  So that's more chances to pick up your situational bonus.  Also, if something is already maxed out, then it's more understandable that additional bonuses are going to come more dearly than before.  If you're normally only allowed 5 Guns, getting 6 some of time with a stunt is like cheating, you know?  :)

On the other hand, unless a character concept is specifically calling for a limited application of a skill, then stunts on weaker skills seem a little disappointing.  They're not "look at this awesome trick I have" and are instead "I wish I had more skill points to buy a higher normal value."

Yeah, powers are supposed to be better than stunts, but if you make normal stunts too weak, people interested in playing pure mortals are going to wonder why they bothered taking them.  And supernaturals will be less likely to round themselves out by supplementing their powers with vanilla tricks.  Sure, powers are limited by High Concept.  However, a stunt not used more than once per session is generally not worth the loss of a refresh compared to just spending the FP.  So it's not like they benefit a lot by picking up stuff willy nilly and ignoring their main concept either.  And having a high concept tied to most of your powers makes it really easy to invoke at least one aspect when using them.

iago:

--- Quote from: Victim on April 26, 2010, 10:56:29 PM ---Doesn't that seem a bit weak? 

--- End quote ---
No, not to the guy who's been working on the system for 5 years. :)

It's equivalent to getting a +2 to your Endurance rating if your Endurance was already rated Superb. That's a stunt's bonus, right there.

(And with that, bowing out of this thread as well. Gotta get work done.)

Jetan:
I realize this probably won't get seen, but I'll add a comment just in case.  Riposte has a use that seems much more powerful than two shifts, and thus seems broken (compared to the discussion of it above). I'll lift the one material comment from the martial arts thread:

"Riposte seems too powerful: as described, it precludes the attacker from employing other means of defense (e.g., it let's an axe wielder parry a mage's wimpy athame attack, skip right past his +10 magical block, do potentially wopping weapon damage, and potentially pop the shield since it was bypassed to boot). Prototypical fencing also has people countering a riposte, setting up an opportunity for it to lead people in, etc. With this stunt as currently written, the target cannot even invoke aspects to save himself form the attack. Perhaps it should permit you an immediate attack at a bonus or some free stress (as in SotC), but not obviate the combat process and all the mechanisms that it engages. Since ripostes worth mentioning are interesting storywise, perhaps it allows you to spend a fate point for a free immediate attack (possibly even at a minus; it is free, after all)."

That's all.

I look forward to *everything*! (Including Iago having bandwidth for more rules variations after the game knocks 'em dead over summer!)

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