The Dresden Files > DFRPG
signators of the accord and accord cities [many questions]
mythcantor:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on April 03, 2010, 08:44:35 PM ---Actually, by Dresden Universe standards I'd say they are. They're not perfect, certainly, but they're no worse than the White Council. We've seen them at their worst in the books, in large part because our Protagonist has ties to winter, and because Titania has a personal grudge against Harry, but they seem to be honorable, and legitimately much nicer people than the Winter Court.
In any case, whether the Summer Court are the nicest folks ever wasn't really my point, just that the Winter Court is less nice, and probably qualify as evil for most practical purposes.
--- End quote ---
No worse than the White Council also defines the a number of less savory groups probably. Like, "No worse than the Spanish Inquisition", or "No worse than the Courts of Star Chamber". "It's all for a good cause" could probably be another phrase, just like was used with those other organizations.
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: Mythcantor on April 03, 2010, 09:02:18 PM ---No worse than the White Council also defines the a number of less savory groups probably. Like, "No worse than the Spanish Inquisition", or "No worse than the Courts of Star Chamber". "It's all for a good cause" could probably be another phrase, just like was used with those other organizations.
--- End quote ---
Now, now, Harry's predjudices aside, the White Council is a force for good in the world as a whole. They do indeed do horrible, unforgiveable, things on occasion...but they're also some of a very few people who can stand up against the supernatural evil in the world and do something about it. And they do.
I'm not saying either the Summer Court or the White Council are pure champions of all that's good and right, but they are on the right side, fighting against the monsters that prey on humanity. Neither of them preys on humanity for sustenance or for the sake of doing so, and both try and stop some of those that do (the Winter Court and warlocks and black sorcerers, respectively). That makes them the 'good guys' as far as I'm concerned.
Still, you are right in a sense, I picked the White Council deliberately as a comparison as opposed to, say, the Knights of the Cross, because neither the Summer Court nor the White Council are as pure as driven snow, but that doesn't make them the bad guys.
mythcantor:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on April 03, 2010, 09:17:13 PM ---Now, now, Harry's predjudices aside, the White Council is a force for good in the world as a whole. They do indeed do horrible, unforgiveable, things on occasion...but they're also some of a very few people who can stand up against the supernatural evil in the world and do something about it. And they do.
I'm not saying either the Summer Court or the White Council are pure champions of all that's good and right, but they are on the right side, fighting against the monsters that prey on humanity. Neither of them preys on humanity for sustenance or for the sake of doing so, and both try and stop some of those that do (the Winter Court and warlocks and black sorcerers, respectively). That makes them the 'good guys' as far as I'm concerned.
Still, you are right in a sense, I picked the White Council deliberately as a comparison as opposed to, say, the Knights of the Cross, because neither the Summer Court nor the White Council are as pure as driven snow, but that doesn't make them the bad guys.
--- End quote ---
In what way does the Summer court fight against those that prey on humanity? What large Council actions have we seen to protect the humanity from the monsters? We've seen Harry, the Paranet, and Elaine. We've seen him call upon Ramirez from time to time to stop magic anti-magical goings on. But I don't think we've seen the council ever act out in anything but enlightened self-interest.
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: Mythcantor on April 03, 2010, 09:25:13 PM ---In what way does the Summer court fight against those that prey on humanity? What large Council actions have we seen to protect the humanity from the monsters? We've seen Harry, the Paranet, and Elaine. We've seen him call upon Ramirez from time to time to stop magic anti-magical goings on. But I don't think we've seen the council ever act out in anything but enlightened self-interest.
--- End quote ---
I actually mentioned that specifically:
The Summer Court opposes the Winter Court at every opportunity, considering who and what the Winter Court are and do, that qualifies as protecting humanity early and often. Their motivations vary somewhat by individual, but they do it. I'd go into more detail, but we honestly don't have alot more detail on the Summer Court. I'll just note that with the exception of Aurora and Titania we've never seen a member of the Summer Court do anything that could be described as evil except under direct orders from a Queen (which they are incapable of disobeying).
The Council, meanwhile, hunts down and stops anyone who breaks the Laws of Magic, which are legitimately bad people preying on humanity for the most part, even Harry admits that. Or did until the Vampire War, anyway, and since then they've been fighting vampires and their allies instead.
Additionally, to quote Dead Beat, Luccio gives a specific rundown of what being a warden means:
"That it will be your job to protect mortals in this area. To be vigilant against supernatural threats in your region, and represent the Council in matters of diplomacy. To aid and assist other wizards who come to you for aid and protection, and, when required, to strike at the enemies of the Council, such as the Red Court and their allies."
The Senior Council may not be the nicest folks on Earth, but protecting mortals from magical threats is explicitly part of a Warden's mandate. Every Warden we've seen takes that seriously, and every one but Harry seems to always get the Council's backing on it, and even Harry usually gets said backing. An organization's leaders and politics aren't the sum of what it is and does. A Police Department whose chief is corrupt and playing politics can still be one of the good guys if the officers take their job seriously and protect people.
mythcantor:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on April 03, 2010, 09:49:14 PM ---I actually mentioned that specifically:
The Summer Court opposes the Winter Court at every opportunity, considering who and what the Winter Court are and do, that qualifies as protecting humanity early and often. Their motivations vary somewhat by individual, but they do it. I'd go into more detail, but we honestly don't have alot more detail on the Summer Court. I'll just note that with the exception of Aurora and Titania we've never seen a member of the Summer Court do anything that could be described as evil except under direct orders from a Queen (which they are incapable of disobeying).
--- End quote ---
Where is that coming from? The opposite of doing everything to hurt humanity, could be doing everything to ignore humanity, because "interference would be an unkindness. We should let them fight their own battles." For the Wizards against the monsters, they remained neutral. They probably remain neutral against others.
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on April 03, 2010, 09:49:14 PM ---The Council, meanwhile, hunts down and stops anyone who breaks the Laws of Magic, which are legitimately bad people preying on humanity for the most part, even Harry admits that. Or did until the Vampire War, anyway, and since then they've been fighting vampires and their allies instead.
Additionally, to quote Dead Beat, Luccio gives a specific rundown of what being a warden means:
"That it will be your job to protect mortals in this area. To be vigilant against supernatural threats in your region, and represent the Council in matters of diplomacy. To aid and assist other wizards who come to you for aid and protection, and, when required, to strike at the enemies of the Council, such as the Red Court and their allies."
The Senior Council may not be the nicest folks on Earth, but protecting mortals from magical threats is explicitly part of a Warden's mandate. Every Warden we've seen takes that seriously, and every one but Harry seems to always get the Council's backing on it, and even Harry usually gets said backing. An organization's leaders and politics aren't the sum of what it is and does. A Police Department whose chief is corrupt and playing politics can still be one of the good guys if the officers take their job seriously and protect people.
--- End quote ---
Thanks for the quote on that. That's pretty good evidence. It's followed, iirc, with Harry saying something like "I already do that", and Luccio saying "Now you'll do it in a Grey Cloak". It was while she was trying to convince him he had to join. But not to join the council. That was to join the Wardens. The Wardens are a part of the Council, but not even the most significant percentage of them.
The killing of the Law Breakers is good work. It's like the government that waits until a toxic spill happens and then cleans it up. It is in their own enlightened self-interest since that is what the Council exists FOR. It is not done in order to protect people. If it was to protect people it would be proactive. They would find potentials everywhere they could and warn them, bring them into the fold. Create ranks of supporting lower level magic users within the council membership so that they could also have a voice to express their needs, fears and become protected from the other signatories of the Accords. Instead, they decide they can kill them at will, but don't offer them the most basic levels of protection.
The Council may have been a wonderful organization when it was pulled together, but it isn't anymore. There are good people in it, but, like Cowl says, it is rotten at the core. He didn't just mean Peabody, I don't think.
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