The Dresden Files > DFRPG
signators of the accord and accord cities [many questions]
vonpenguin:
Just throwing in my two cents, the Summer and Winter Courts are neither evil nor good. Like Bob says Summer winning against Winter would usher in a great period of growth and life; which would be better for things like disease than for any kind of “higher” beings. They’re locked in a perpetual contest and either side winning would be extremely bad. Winter may represent a more entropy ridden and deadly system than Summer but they aren’t necessarily bad. Granted most of the ones we see aren’t nearly as fluffy and nice as the gruffs, who were only doing their job, but the eldest queen of winter seemed pleasant enough which seems to imply that others may be as well. The Summer court probably has their share of predators stalking the night as well.
And the White council probably started out with noble intentions but has over time become increasingly self interested. They do good work and fight the good fight when it needs doing but for the most part they just want to safeguard the status quo.
srl51676:
The concepts of Good and Evil do not apply to the Summer or Winter Courts. They are alien in their motivations and their struggle for power mirrors the natural world. The fact that something natural is attractive or sometimes sweet to you does not make it good. Just ask Roy Horn of Siegfried & Roy he raised the tiger from a cub and thought he understood it right up until it pounced on him. This does not make the tiger evil you can not apply human morality to non human creatures.
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: Mythcantor on April 03, 2010, 10:39:24 PM ---Where is that coming from? The opposite of doing everything to hurt humanity, could be doing everything to ignore humanity, because "interference would be an unkindness. We should let them fight their own battles." For the Wizards against the monsters, they remained neutral. They probably remain neutral against others.
--- End quote ---
Not exactly, they aren’t just the opposite of Winter, they are almost compelled to actively oppose it (Summer Knight and Small Favor both discuss this aspect of the two Courts), which means that when Winter’s plans involve hurting people, Summer tries to save them. And vice versa potentially, but Winter doesn’t exactly help people nearly as often.
--- Quote from: Mythcantor on April 03, 2010, 10:39:24 PM ---Thanks for the quote on that. That's pretty good evidence. It's followed, iirc, with Harry saying something like "I already do that", and Luccio saying "Now you'll do it in a Grey Cloak". It was while she was trying to convince him he had to join. But not to join the council. That was to join the Wardens. The Wardens are a part of the Council, but not even the most significant percentage of them.
--- End quote ---
Yep, you remember correctly. :)
And yeah, the Wardens aren’t the whole of the Council, but they are the most active portion of it, with a lot of the rest sitting around doing magical research and other things like that.
--- Quote from: Mythcantor on April 03, 2010, 10:39:24 PM ---The killing of the Law Breakers is good work. It's like the government that waits until a toxic spill happens and then cleans it up. It is in their own enlightened self-interest since that is what the Council exists FOR. It is not done in order to protect people. If it was to protect people it would be proactive. They would find potentials everywhere they could and warn them, bring them into the fold. Create ranks of supporting lower level magic users within the council membership so that they could also have a voice to express their needs, fears and become protected from the other signatories of the Accords. Instead, they decide they can kill them at will, but don't offer them the most basic levels of protection.
The Council may have been a wonderful organization when it was pulled together, but it isn't anymore. There are good people in it, but, like Cowl says, it is rotten at the core. He didn't just mean Peabody, I don't think.
--- End quote ---
True, to an extent, but I think we’re talking past each other a bit here: I’m in no way saying the Council doesn’t have it’s bad side or doesn’t act in large part due to self interest. So did, say, the U.S. during World War II…but that doesn’t mean they weren’t the good guys compared to what they were facing.
--- Quote from: vonpenguin on April 03, 2010, 11:27:34 PM ---Just throwing in my two cents, the Summer and Winter Courts are neither evil nor good.
--- End quote ---
Oh, I agree, at least in the moral sense. They’re Fae and thus alien. But again I think our definitions may be slightly off: I referred to the Summer Court as the good guys, in a good guys vs. bad guys context. Their motivations may be alien, but from a human perspective, they’re on the right side.
--- Quote from: vonpenguin on April 03, 2010, 11:27:34 PM ---Like Bob says Summer winning against Winter would usher in a great period of growth and life; which would be better for things like disease than for any kind of “higher” beings. They’re locked in a perpetual contest and either side winning would be extremely bad. Winter may represent a more entropy ridden and deadly system than Summer but they aren’t necessarily bad. Granted most of the ones we see aren’t nearly as fluffy and nice as the gruffs, who were only doing their job, but the eldest queen of winter seemed pleasant enough which seems to imply that others may be as well. The Summer court probably has their share of predators stalking the night as well.
--- End quote ---
This I don’t agree with. In a discussion of universal balance, sure, yeah, either side’s victory would be awful, because they impact the ecosystem of the earth, and yes, there may be perfectly benign Winter Fae and cruel Summer Fae…but that’s not the normal way of things. In the normal scheme of things, the Summer Court protect and nurture humans in exchange for favors (they like deals every bit as much as Winter), and the Winter Court have men dance to death or women raped for their entertainment. Are the Summer Court every bit as alien, at heart, as Winter? Sure. But they are differently alien, and in a way that is usually less inimical to humanity.
--- Quote from: vonpenguin on April 03, 2010, 11:27:34 PM ---And the White council probably started out with noble intentions but has over time become increasingly self interested. They do good work and fight the good fight when it needs doing but for the most part they just want to safeguard the status quo.
--- End quote ---
There are actually some sound logical reasons for the Council not to take a more active role in things (Luccio argues them well in Turn Coat), but more importantly, I’m not arguing motivation, I’m arguing what side they’ve aligned themselves with, and they’ve very much decided to protect and defend humanity.
mythcantor:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on April 04, 2010, 01:17:22 AM ---Not exactly, they aren’t just the opposite of Winter, they are almost compelled to actively oppose it (Summer Knight and Small Favor both discuss this aspect of the two Courts), which means that when Winter’s plans involve hurting people, Summer tries to save them. And vice versa potentially, but Winter doesn’t exactly help people nearly as often.
Yep, you remember correctly. :)
And yeah, the Wardens aren’t the whole of the Council, but they are the most active portion of it, with a lot of the rest sitting around doing magical research and other things like that.
True, to an extent, but I think we’re talking past each other a bit here: I’m in no way saying the Council doesn’t have it’s bad side or doesn’t act in large part due to self interest. So did, say, the U.S. during World War II…but that doesn’t mean they weren’t the good guys compared to what they were facing.
--- End quote ---
I can get behind that and push, but I think that the U.S. during WWII had more enlightened will than the Council, at least to get something done right. The Council is archaically slow in coming to action compared to the U.S. And they've had the equivalent of nuclear bombs before nuclear bombs were cool. Still, I get your point in that. As far as the 'compelled to act against' thing, my read was different, but that's because I think Titania is behind the 'Black Council'. Already covered that in another threat though.
bjuford:
I have a question about which wizards are bound by the Accords. The White Council is a signatory to the Accords, but sorcerers, focused practitioners, and minor talents are not members of the White Council; are these various spellcasters bound by the Accords? I figure that the answer is no, but that brings me to a new question ... at what point does a spellcaster become bound by the Accords? Is the spellcaster required to formally join the White Council, or do the Accords presume that spellcasters of a certain degree of power are always members of the White Council (which could lead to the Council being held liable for the actions of a powerful warlock)?
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