What about Etri? 12 Months

[Bad Alias]

In another topic, I was saying I would have liked there to be more of a plotline in this book external to Harry's emotional journey. One thing I suggested was maybe if Harry had actually tried to solve Etri's demand for Thomas's death. Even if what he was doing about Etri was repeatedly running into brick walls. That would have made Harry having to turn to Mab to solve Etri a better payoff, I think.

And that got me thinking, Harry didn't really do anything about Etri except his meeting with him where he gives Harry time to prove Nemesis had Justine. At one point he asked Lara to see what she could do. Then basically nothing. Michael even offered to mediate, and Harry just said, nah, it's not your problem. Harry's usually way better about exhausting every avenue at his disposal. Here he didn't really even try.

Maybe that was the point. That Harry was pretty thoroughly defeated by Murphy's death?

[LaraBeck]

Harry's usually way better about exhausting every avenue at his disposal. Here he didn't really even try.

Maybe that was the point. That Harry was pretty thoroughly defeated by Murphy's death?

Exactly, Harry is usually better about exhausting all avenues. That's why it was so weird to me that this guy that tried and tried and tried to find a solution for Susan's problem, wasn't going to even ask Vadderung —who he apparently can just call up on the phone— about Murphy's wellbeing, I mean, he could have just ask, I'm not even talking about trying something else, like ask for the details of the process or hell, even try to negotiate something. And it's not that he should have, just that's more according to his character.

The same thing with the Thomas situation. I liked the drama of it all. But you are right, it was pretty much as if Harry didn't even try anything. And then, he was also just fine handing over his Nephew, his own blood to these other people to be raised —and Lara is just fine giving away her grandbaby as well— For always having a speech about "family" that was weird. No wonder Thomas was upset with Harry, and personally, he should have stayed mad. Though, tbh, I'm not buying the act yet, I think we should expect something else from Thomas, he's not over his anger toward Harry.

I think we're supposed to believe that Harry not trying to find a loophole for Murphy's Einherjaness is meant to be a sign of maturity or something, the same with the Thomas situation. Either that, or Harry was really really completly broken. Maybe it would have been read more like that if we'd seen Harry try to do something regarding Murphy's death and failing miserably (of course) and that would seep into everything else.

There's also a point to be made about how much of Harry's mental/emotional state actually was about Murphy and how much it was about his shame over his actions right after. I felt we spent more time with that actually, than with Harry lamenting the future he lost with Murph. But well, that's another matter.

But my point is that these things are important maybe in what Harry didn't do with the situation with Etri, I remember thinking that the matter just disappeared from the page rather quickly. And then they just hand the baby away. Yes, they know that he's going to be treated as a prince, but still. On the other hand, Harry is mostly comfortable with offshoring parenting Maggie for a long while, so maybe is not a big deal for him. But isn't this kind of thing what Dresden fights Eb about, that he will make the choices for his child? And he ultimately brings her home with him, that's the "resolution" for the Maggie situation in this book. Harry just took that choice from Thomas, in a way.

[Mira]

And that got me thinking, Harry didn't really do anything about Etri except his meeting with him where he gives Harry time to prove Nemesis had Justine. At one point he asked Lara to see what she could do. Then basically nothing. Michael even offered to mediate, and Harry just said, nah, it's not your problem. Harry's usually way better about exhausting every avenue at his disposal. Here he didn't really even try.

  I totally disagree, Harry did try, the problem he was running into was what Etri considered justice for the death of his friend and the attempt on his life.  Thomas was guilty of murder and attempted assassination, end of story, Harry was rightfully arguing that mitigating circumstances caused Thomas to do what he did.  However it amounted to arguing for life in prison verses the death penalty.  Etri was also in a position politically that there had to be some punishment for Thomas.  Etri did grant Harry time to prove that there were mitigating circumstances for Thomas, but the problem was Harry couldn't find Justine.  He wasn't doing that on his own, Molly and agents for Lara were helping and some of them disappeared.

Exactly, Harry is usually better about exhausting all avenues. That's why it was so weird to me that this guy that tried and tried and tried to find a solution for Susan's problem, wasn't going to even ask Vadderung —who he apparently can just call up on the phone— about Murphy's wellbeing, I mean, he could have just ask, I'm not even talking about trying something else, like ask for the details of the process or hell, even try to negotiate something. And it's not that he should have, just that's more according to his character.

By Susan's problem do you mean her being half turned?  Or his efforts to rescue his and Susan's daughter? Either way not really what he was running into with Etri, Thomas was guilty of what he was accused of doing.

The same thing with the Thomas situation. I liked the drama of it all. But you are right, it was pretty much as if Harry didn't even try anything. And then, he was also just fine handing over his Nephew, his own blood to these other people to be raised —and Lara is just fine giving away her grandbaby as well— For always having a speech about "family" that was weird. No wonder Thomas was upset with Harry, and personally, he should have stayed mad. Though, tbh, I'm not buying the act yet, I think we should expect something else from Thomas, he's not over his anger toward Harry.

A life for a life, that was the demand, either Thomas tortured and executed or the elves would take the child to raise, and raise well.  No death, no war, that was the best that could be done.

There's also a point to be made about how much of Harry's mental/emotional state actually was about Murphy and how much it was about his shame over his actions right after. I felt we spent more time with that actually, than with Harry lamenting the future he lost with Murph. But well, that's another matter.

When you lose someone violently, this is what goes through one's mind.  It is complicated, Harry feels he had failed Murphy, if he had just done something, anything different, she would be alive. This in turn becomes his personal shame and guilt that he tried to kill her killer on one hand, and at the same time shame and guilt that he hadn't.  Good memories and sorrow over a future lost, these come later, it's like when you injure yourself badly, at first all you can think about is the pain, and if you had done this or that it wouldn't have happened, it takes a while to look to the future of when you are healed again. 

But my point is that these things are important maybe in what Harry didn't do with the situation with Etri, I remember thinking that the matter just disappeared from the page rather quickly. And then they just hand the baby away. Yes, they know that he's going to be treated as a prince, but still. On the other hand, Harry is mostly comfortable with offshoring parenting Maggie for a long while, so maybe is not a big deal for him. But isn't this kind of thing what Dresden fights Eb about, that he will make the choices for his child? And he ultimately brings her home with him, that's the "resolution" for the Maggie situation in this book. Harry just took that choice from Thomas, in a way.

There wasn't much of a choice really as I have pointed out.  Also not like little Maggie at all and why Harry left her with the Carpenters for so long.  Neither Harry nor Thomas had a choice in the matter, it was the only thing that Etri and his people would accept as justice given what Thomas had done, even with mitigating circumstances. 

[Bad Alias]

A life for a life, that was the demand, either Thomas tortured and executed or the elves would take the child to raise, and raise well.  No death, no war, that was the best that could be done.

No one considered sacrificing Lord Raith? "You tried to kill our king, we get you 'king.'" It would make a lot of sense for them to sacrifice Lord Raith. He's scheming against Harry and Lara. And then it wouldn't work because it would be admitting the White Court was involved, and Lara can't do that and keep House Raith in charge.

I'm not saying that I wanted to see Harry succeed in finding another way. I wanted to see him try.

As for making the choice to trade the baby, I think Harry only realized that was what was happening as it happened. It was too late at that point to do anything else. Mab did what she did in Skin Game. She offered the solution to birthing problems at the last moment when labor had already started, and she set the price.

Any other avenue would have left the child functionally orphaned. Thomas would be dead or running from the Svartalves. Justine would be in the same situation of not being able to know the baby existed. And then Harry and Lara would fight over the baby. I think it's actually a worse solution.

[Mira]

No one considered sacrificing Lord Raith? "You tried to kill our king, we get you 'king.'" It would make a lot of sense for them to sacrifice Lord Raith. He's scheming against Harry and Lara. And then it wouldn't work because it would be admitting the White Court was involved, and Lara can't do that and keep House Raith in charge.

There is a problem with that though, and it's an inconsistency in the series.  Remember back in Blood Rites when Eb said he tried to kill Lord Raith and couldn't?  This was Blackstaff talking right?  Margaret was able to block Raith's feeding with her death curse, but she couldn't kill him with it.  Harry sensed the cold emptiness inside Lord Raith, he wanted very badly to kill him, but didn't try it because of what Eb had told him.. Fast forward to 12 Months and Eb tells Harry in effect that he chose not to kill Lord Raith? The point I am making is if the general knowlege was that Lord Raith couldn't be killed, that wouldn't satisfy Etri.  Plus, even at this point, though most know better, Lara is still the power behind the throne not the head of the White Court, and if Lord Raith was handed over, that would blow the court up politically and destabilize things more.

I'm not saying that I wanted to see Harry succeed in finding another way. I wanted to see him try.

He did try, but his options were limited, his political power is limited, or was.   He did come up with a solution, getting that boon from Mab.

As for making the choice to trade the baby, I think Harry only realized that was what was happening as it happened. It was too late at that point to do anything else. Mab did what she did in Skin Game. She offered the solution to birthing problems at the last moment when labor had already started, and she set the price.

I doubt that, she had negotiated it with Etri ahead of time.  Because if it was last minute as you say, there was no gararantee that Etri would have accepted those terms.  She didn't set the price, Etri did.

ny other avenue would have left the child functionally orphaned. Thomas would be dead or running from the Svartalves. Justine would be in the same situation of not being able to know the baby existed. And then Harry and Lara would fight over the baby. I think it's actually a worse solution.

I am not sure of what you are trying to say here.  1] Would the child even have been born? Did the Outsider want it to be born?  Remember the mid-wife in this case was actually Mother Summer, was that necessary?  If it was a normal birth, there were several people on sight that could have assisted.  The fact that Justine was still possessed by the Outsider meant that it took someone like Mother Summer to assist and keep the child safe during the birthing process.2] Yes, if there was no negotiated  settlement, Thomas surely would have been killed. 3] Why would Harry and Lara fight over the baby?  They are still on track to marry if Mab gets her way, and she usually does, they would just be foster parents.. 

[Tinfoil hat]

There is a problem with that though, and it's an inconsistency in the series.  Remember back in Blood Rites when Eb said he tried to kill Lord Raith and couldn't?  This was Blackstaff talking right?  Margaret was able to block Raith's feeding with her death curse, but she couldn't kill him with it.  Harry sensed the cold emptiness inside Lord Raith, he wanted very badly to kill him, but didn't try it because of what Eb had told him.. Fast forward to 12 Months and Eb tells Harry in effect that he chose not to kill Lord Raith? The point I am making is if the general knowlege was that Lord Raith couldn't be killed, that wouldn't satisfy Etri.  Plus, even at this point, though most know better, Lara is still the power behind the throne not the head of the White Court, and if Lord Raith was handed over, that would blow the court up politically and destabilize things more.

He did try, but his options were limited, his political power is limited, or was.   He did come up with a solution, getting that boon from Mab.

I doubt that, she had negotiated it with Etri ahead of time.  Because if it was last minute as you say, there was no gararantee that Etri would have accepted those terms.  She didn't set the price, Etri did.

I am not sure of what you are trying to say here.  1] Would the child even have been born? Did the Outsider want it to be born?  Remember the mid-wife in this case was actually Mother Summer, was that necessary?  If it was a normal birth, there were several people on sight that could have assisted.  The fact that Justine was still possessed by the Outsider meant that it took someone like Mother Summer to assist and keep the child safe during the birthing process.2] Yes, if there was no negotiated  settlement, Thomas surely would have been killed. 3] Why would Harry and Lara fight over the baby?  They are still on track to marry if Mab gets her way, and she usually does, they would just be foster parents.. 

Personally I don't think the baby could have been born any other way. You don't ask Mother Summer to be a mid wife if it's possible any other way. Either the Nemesis would have possessed the baby to use as an escape route or as a vector for possessing others.
2) the solution to Etri's demands
Finally hours of obsessing over a song of ice and fire, and history finally pay of.

Mab properly didn't discuss it with Etri beforehand but Etri conditions were clear a life for a life. Either Thomas or someone of his blood. The baby is of his blood. Giving your child as hostage or a price to your foes to ensure peace or as a weregild was not uncommon in past across multiple cultures.  Hell marrying Margie to Etri's son was not out of the question. Mab implies it although Harry sees it as a threat against Margie's life but I think this was what she was trying to get across. In the most Mab way possible.
Also Etri didn't have a choice in this situation. Someone had to be punished for the attempt on his life. Doing nothing makes him appear weak to both his allies and enemies. Even knowing about nemesis does not excuse Thomas. Thomas was not possessed he was forced to do it sure but he still did it of his own will even if under duress. He had to be punished and publicly at that. Etri taking his son is that. Then to show what a kind, noble , honourable and wise ruler he is to his people and other the baby has to be treated well to show that he is not driven by revenge and he can be a good Ally. Think Theon in asoiaf

[Bad Alias]

There is a problem with that though, and it's an inconsistency in the series.  Remember back in Blood Rites when Eb said he tried to kill Lord Raith and couldn't?  This was Blackstaff talking right?  Margaret was able to block Raith's feeding with her death curse, but she couldn't kill him with it.  Harry sensed the cold emptiness inside Lord Raith, he wanted very badly to kill him, but didn't try it because of what Eb had told him.. Fast forward to 12 Months and Eb tells Harry in effect that he chose not to kill Lord Raith? The point I am making is if the general knowlege was that Lord Raith couldn't be killed, that wouldn't satisfy Etri.

It was only magic that couldn't kill him.

Plus, even at this point, though most know better, Lara is still the power behind the throne not the head of the White Court, and if Lord Raith was handed over, that would blow the court up politically and destabilize things more.

That's why Lara would probably have rejected it, but Harry never even considered it.

I doubt that, she had negotiated it with Etri ahead of time.  Because if it was last minute as you say, there was no gararantee that Etri would have accepted those terms.  She didn't set the price, Etri did.

I mean Harry didn't realize the price until after the delivery and Mab set the price for her help to Harry. It doesn't really matter if she negotiated it with Etri before hand or just new he would accept as Tinfoil hat says.

My stomach sank. Because I realized what was coming. What had to come next. What I had asked for.

I am not sure of what you are trying to say here.  1] Would the child even have been born? Did the Outsider want it to be born?  Remember the mid-wife in this case was actually Mother Summer, was that necessary?  If it was a normal birth, there were several people on sight that could have assisted.  The fact that Justine was still possessed by the Outsider meant that it took someone like Mother Summer to assist and keep the child safe during the birthing process.2] Yes, if there was no negotiated  settlement, Thomas surely would have been killed. 3] Why would Harry and Lara fight over the baby?  They are still on track to marry if Mab gets her way, and she usually does, they would just be foster parents.. 

Assuming everything happened as it did except trading the baby away, Thomas lives, Justine is captured, the baby is delivered safely, Mab does the torture/memory wipe on Justine. Neither Thomas nor Justine would be able to raise the baby.

At this point, Harry and Lara have an equal claim on the baby. They are not going to agree on how to raise him. Happily married biological parents often argue over how to raise their kids. I don't see how Harry and Lara would agree on much besides maybe sending him to St. Mark's.

Harry and Lara are going to keep separate households. How else is Harry going to keep Maggie away from the White Court?

[Mira]

Assuming everything happened as it did except trading the baby away, Thomas lives, Justine is captured, the baby is delivered safely, Mab does the torture/memory wipe on Justine. Neither Thomas nor Justine would be able to raise the baby.

You are leaving out an important part here, this is how Mab cured Lea when she was possessed.  Maeve was too far gone and Mab had to have her killed.  Mab admitted that she doesn't know if this method or attempt will cure Justine.  At least Mab is giving it a shot, more than Justine would have had otherwise.  Do you know of any other ways to removed an Outsider soldier from a possessed mortal?

I mean Harry didn't realize the price until after the delivery and Mab set the price for her help to Harry. It doesn't really matter if she negotiated it with Etri before hand or just new he would accept as Tinfoil hat says.

Oh Harry knew there would be a price, what he wanted most of all was for his brother to live.  Mab told him upfront that she might be able to do that, but there would be a cost.  Namely because Thomas did commit murder.  Harry understood and said the word the third time to seal the bond for the boone he was asking Mab.

That's why Lara would probably have rejected it, but Harry never even considered it.

Oh I think he did, but because of the polictical undercurrents he couldn't consider it.