Author Topic: Have there been any . . .  (Read 2640 times)

Offline Lord Kinbote

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Have there been any . . .
« on: April 12, 2024, 09:17:58 PM »
Spoilery discussions, speculations, theorizing, etc. over Dresden's mother's life and death?  Or who Dresden's maternal grandmother is?  I've searched the DF Spoiler folders without luck.  Thanks.

Offline g33k

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2024, 01:49:48 AM »
Spoilery discussions, speculations, theorizing, etc. over Dresden's mother's life and death?  Or who Dresden's maternal grandmother is?  I've searched the DF Spoiler folders without luck.  Thanks.
Margaret LaFey, aka Maggie Sr?
Yes, she has featured here & has been theorized-about a fair bit.

Her mother -- Ebenezer's wife(?) -- has IIRC been WoJ'ed as a full-mortal.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 09:52:02 PM by g33k »

Offline LostInTime

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2024, 03:01:54 PM »
Margaret LaFey, aka Maggie Sr?
Yes, she has featured here & has been theorized-about a fair bit.

Her mother -- Ebenezer's wife(?) -- has IIRC been WoJ'ed as a full-mortal.
Ebenezer's wife was a full mortal, without magic. IIRC, Jim's words were that she was a vanilla mortal.

Nowhere in that statement was anything that could be construed as saying that Ebenezer's wife was Magaret's mother. Anything else is presumption.

I was coming here to post this thought on Magaret.
Do we know that Margaret died from Lord Raith's entropy curse? What if she traded her life to Lea in her bargain for Lea to protect Harry? She could have still levelled her death curse at Lord Raith. And nobody outside the bargain would be the wiser.

Harry makes incorrect assumptions all the time. Why couldn't powerful supernaturals do the same? "I shot my entropy curse at her and she died. Ergo, I must have killed her."
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Offline g33k

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2024, 04:07:11 PM »
...
Do we know that Margaret died from Lord Raith's entropy curse? What if she traded her life to Lea in her bargain for Lea to protect Harry? She could have still levelled her death curse at Lord Raith. And nobody outside the bargain would be the wiser.

Harry makes incorrect assumptions all the time. Why couldn't powerful supernaturals do the same? "I shot my entropy curse at her and she died. Ergo, I must have killed her."

I kinda-sorta agree; but with a twist.  Herewith, my WAG on that:

I think Margaret's bargain (which was struck before Harry was born) was to protect Harry (with some "interesting" loopholes, undoubtedly:  these are faerie deals, after all!).  I think that deal protected Margaret too, while Harry was in utero; but then "died in childbirth" was the hovering entropy-curse killing her the moment she had given birth.

I think Lea absolutely expected it to work out that way (WoJ is that when/if Harry learns what Lea did, he's gonna be enraged with her -- I expect this is one element of that).

I think Margaret LaFey was fae-savvy enough to expect the same:  she got her "Darth Vader turns back to Anakin" moment in her relationship with Malcolm, but she knew her past would catch up with her and so didn't really expect to live much longer; and so she leveraged everything she could to make sure LukeHarry had the protection he'd need, in order to survive into adulthood.

Offline Lord Kinbote

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2024, 12:49:33 AM »
I expect something far more convoluted and dark.  Say, Lea agreed to hide and protect Margaret from Lord Raith if she followed Lea's instructions (from Mab or the Queen Mothers) so that Margaret would give birth a starborn that Mab needed to beat the Outsiders.  And Malcom's death was also caused/orchestrated so that Justin could eventually begin sharpening Harry into the weapon Mab needed.

Though I'm fuzzy about why McCoy didn't know about Harry, or maybe he was part of Project Breed a Starborn.

Lea is interesting.  Lea is the most powerful member of the Winter Court after Mab.  So more powerful than the Winter Lady, but not in the line of succession.  Also, for every other high member of the Winter Court, there appears to be a counterpart in Summer.  Except Lea, as far as revealed.  Why no Summer counterpart?  Is Lea truly something different/special hiding in plain sight?

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2024, 02:18:13 PM »
Lea is interesting.  Lea is the most powerful member of the Winter Court after Mab.  So more powerful than the Winter Lady, but not in the line of succession.  Also, for every other high member of the Winter Court, there appears to be a counterpart in Summer.  Except Lea, as far as revealed.  Why no Summer counterpart?  Is Lea truly something different/special hiding in plain sight?

There isn't an exact 1:1 in every role. For one thing, there's the position of Eldest of all the Fae species other than Sidhe for which the particular species follows one court or the other rather than being split.  Eldest Gruff is probably the closest parallel to Lea that we've seen on page in Summer, being a powerful magic user and confidante of the Queen, but that's far from an exact parallel. 

But a lot of Lea's personal power isn't from handmaiden of the queen being a mantle of Winter. It's power she's accumulated over the centuries by making deals with mortals like Maggie Sr that were skewed in her favour, slowly making her stronger and stronger. That significantly takes away from the obligation for Summer to have an exact balancing parallel.

Offline g33k

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2024, 02:30:58 PM »
... That significantly takes away from the obligation for Summer to have an exact balancing parallel.
Does it, though?
I think "balance" is one of the critical elements upheld by both Courts.

Agreed that (a) Eldest Gruff seems to be the best candidate we have for "Summer counterpart to the Leanansidhe;" but also (b) we don't really know.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2024, 05:49:57 PM »
Does it, though?
I think "balance" is one of the critical elements upheld by both Courts.

It's strict for the mantles.  Less so elsewhere.  Like I said in the earlier point, how do you exactly balance Eldest Malk or Eldest Fetch compared to the Eldest of some of the Summer-affiliated Fae subspecies?  They have inherently different powers and roles in their nations.

I think the reason a little more flexibility is allowed other than in the mantled roles is that Winter just allocates its overall surplus to the Gates.  Even if there isn't a 1:1 counterpart for every single role, they can maintain an aggregate balance with Summer by shuffling forces between Gate duty and the home guard.  Letting Lea be strong enough to cover for her in shifts at the Gates is a big part of why Mab allows her to be as strong as she is.

Offline Mira

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2024, 01:39:02 PM »
It's strict for the mantles.  Less so elsewhere.  Like I said in the earlier point, how do you exactly balance Eldest Malk or Eldest Fetch compared to the Eldest of some of the Summer-affiliated Fae subspecies?  They have inherently different powers and roles in their nations.

I think the reason a little more flexibility is allowed other than in the mantled roles is that Winter just allocates its overall surplus to the Gates.  Even if there isn't a 1:1 counterpart for every single role, they can maintain an aggregate balance with Summer by shuffling forces between Gate duty and the home guard.  Letting Lea be strong enough to cover for her in shifts at the Gates is a big part of why Mab allows her to be as strong as she is.

So far the only "mantles" we know of in the Courts are the Queens, Ladies, Knights, and possibly the Mothers.  All of whom, as far as we know began life as mortals.  I assume the Mothers did as well, since they originally were Queens.  I think in terms of "power" the mantles are equal, i.e Mab verses Titania in theory, but depending on the temperament of the holder is used differently and appear to be unbalanced at times, but they do in the end balance each other out.

Offline g33k

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2024, 09:58:51 PM »
So far the only "mantles" we know of in the Courts are the Queens, Ladies, Knights, and possibly the Mothers.  All of whom, as far as we know began life as mortals ...

Not so:  the "Eldest" is a mantle for each sort -- Eldest Gruff, Eldest Fetch, etc.
Kringle is a winterfae mantle.

Offline Mira

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2024, 10:06:18 PM »
Not so:  the "Eldest" is a mantle for each sort -- Eldest Gruff, Eldest Fetch, etc.
Kringle is a winterfae mantle.

You're right, but I think they work differently from the four I mentioned.   Is Kringle a mortal, or rather was he ever a mortal? 

Offline g33k

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2024, 10:10:19 PM »
I expect something far more convoluted and dark.  Say, Lea agreed to hide and protect Margaret from Lord Raith if she followed Lea's instructions (from Mab or the Queen Mothers) so that Margaret would give birth a starborn that Mab needed to beat the Outsiders.  And Malcom's death was also caused/orchestrated so that Justin could eventually begin sharpening Harry into the weapon Mab needed ...
Oh, I don't think they "ordered" Margaret around.... They lured her into doing what they wanted, making her think it was her own plan.

Margaret LeFey was extraordinarily adept with faerie ways, but Mab is just on another level...  Mab manipulated Nic & Anduriel.  Manipulating Maggie Sr. would be childs' play.

As to the rest... I'm inclined to agree.  Justin was Mab's pick for Harry's inital tutelage with magic; Mab arranged Malcolm's death (likely at Lea's hand (or bed)) to begin a pattern of isolation & disaffection, and so Harry would be available when Justin came looking.

Offline g33k

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2024, 10:13:42 PM »
... Is Kringle a mortal, or rather was he ever a mortal? 

It's a Winterfae mantle.

I expect a powerful-enough mortal could wear it (tho AFAIK it's un-stated that one ever has (or has not)), but it's likely more-suited to a being with more-than-mortal willpower.

Offline Lord Kinbote

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2024, 01:35:15 AM »
Oh, I don't think they "ordered" Margaret around.... They lured her into doing what they wanted, making her think it was her own plan.

Margaret LeFey was extraordinarily adept with faerie ways, but Mab is just on another level...  Mab manipulated Nic & Anduriel.  Manipulating Maggie Sr. would be childs' play.

I'd be surprised if they lured Maggie, Sr. into that position unless you also consider Harry as having been lured into being Winter Knight.  I think there's likely some symmetry here with Harry's experience, and Maggie, Sr. found herself in a position where her only option out was to bargain with Mab or Lea.

I also suspect that Thomas was Maggie, Sr.'s first attempt at a starborn, and a super-charged WC one at that, and that any bargain with the Fae pre-dated and required/resulted in Thomas' conception.  That would explain her relationship with Lord Raith, to date an unexplained and fateful/fatal pairing, as well as why Maggie, Sr. and Raith fell out (WC is also all about family, and Raith couldn't have been happy when he found out that Maggie, Sr. had manipulated him for the benefit of the Fae and for his son), and maybe also why Mab has indicated that Thomas might be offered the WK mantle should Harry no longer be the WK. 

Offline Mira

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Re: Have there been any . . .
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2024, 01:41:24 PM »
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I'd be surprised if they lured Maggie, Sr. into that position unless you also consider Harry as having been lured into being Winter Knight.  I think there's likely some symmetry here with Harry's experience, and Maggie, Sr. found herself in a position where her only option out was to bargain with Mab or Lea.

Yeah, I don't think they lured Margaret into it either.  My belief is she knew or was aware of the White Council's desire for a controllable star born, I doubt given her attitude towards them that she wanted their protection and what strings they might have required of her.  Yet she knew the need for one, after she met Malcolm and fell in love, she felt he had the needed qualities to father a star born who could be a leader in the coming BAT.  She also knew he or she would be in danger and needed protection.  She also knew that Mab was very interested in a star born, but one that she could control.  I think Margaret felt that a child fathered by Malcolm would have the strength to cooperate with, but at the same time resist Mab's control.  So she chose what was for her the lessor of two evils, protection of Winter over protection of the White Council, so she made her bargain.. In effect, like she found and exploited a chink in Lord Raith's armor when she threw her death curse, she found a loop hole in Fae bargaining, Mab may have thought she got what she wanted, but not really, as she has found out since Harry became her Knight.
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I also suspect that Thomas was Maggie, Sr.'s first attempt at a starborn, and a super-charged WC one at that, and that any bargain with the Fae pre-dated and required/resulted in Thomas' conception.  That would explain her relationship with Lord Raith, to date an unexplained and fateful/fatal pairing, as well as why Maggie, Sr. and Raith fell out (WC is also all about family, and Raith couldn't have been happy when he found out that Maggie, Sr. had manipulated him for the benefit of the Fae and for his son), and maybe also why Mab has indicated that Thomas might be offered the WK mantle should Harry no longer be the WK.

I don't think so, there is a recipe for conceiving  a star born, Harry was conceived using the recipe, Thomas was not.  That's confirmed by Lash in White Night that Margaret didn't decide to conceive a star child until she met and fell in love with Malcolm.

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I expect a powerful-enough mortal could wear it (tho AFAIK it's un-stated that one ever has (or has not)), but it's likely more-suited to a being with more-than-mortal willpower.

So far the only mortal we've seen with that kind of will power is Harry, and he is a star born.  Now the other star borns that we know of, i.e. Drakul and Listen may have that kind of will power, but they are not members of the Fae Courts as far as we know.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2024, 01:46:20 PM by Mira »