Author Topic: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry  (Read 4811 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2024, 06:22:51 PM »
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That's only a good idea if they are going to be in constant contact with other wardens. In practice, the North American wardens have months to years where they rarely see one another. They have plenty of time to train in methods to avoid detection and recruit followers. Harry sees more major magical action than any other warden besides Morgan and they still think he had the free time to build his plot for world domination.

Did they spot that tendency in Justin?  I doubt that he turned warlock after he retired.. The fact that he hid and stole Bob when the wardens killed Kemmler is a good indication that he was..

Offline g33k

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2024, 11:05:34 PM »
That's only a good idea if they are going to be in constant contact with other wardens. In practice, the North American wardens have months to years where they rarely see one another ...
I'm pretty sure the Harry-as-Warden POV (which is the only one we have) is largely an artifact of post-Ramp-War warden scarcity.  But they likely didn't revisit a bunch of policies based on older assumptions (just as they didn't revisit the amount of the "warden stipend" (when in fact the WC is filthy-rich and it's in their own interests for wardens to be financially secure).

Just inertia.

... but it leaves out some things that don't add up to evil incarnate rising:

Stopping the Denarians at multiple points while resisting their efforts to recruit you, including actual coin possession.
Having KotC show up to aid rather than oppose you on multiple occasions and being ally, mentor, houseguest, baby-sitter (Molly) and drinking buddy with each of the KotC that served since you've been a wizard.
Getting Soulfire from an Archangel.
Actually, telling the Council about most of these things openly with the exceptions of Bob, the Coin and Soulfire.

I do not believe most of this list has actually been reported to the Council.

Fighting the Denarians?  I think it's known, but that's just being sane; it doesn't prove anything.  And AFAIK mostly that only showed up (from the White Council perspective) when Harry needed to act as Winter Emissary in protection of the Gangster Baron... which to the White Council is a bunch of bad-guys mutually backstabbing one another and being incautious around the time-bomb that is an immature Archive.  And Harry looks pretty indistinguishable, in all the stabbing and bad-guy'ing & carelessness with the Archive.

Picking up a Denarius?  Not on the record!  That'd get him killed ASAP:  remember, nobody think there's any way to escape.

Buddying up with KtoC's?  Not well known.
Remember, Langtry had to ask Dresden which Sword was Michael's.  If the WC had realized Harry worked (repeatedly) with all the K's ot C, I bet Langtry would have that info fresh in his mind when coming to a warlock-trial summoned by Dresden.

Soulfire -- not sure anyone knows about that, either.  Bob does... but the White Council?  The Senior Council?  Umm... not that I recall seeing.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2024, 05:03:53 AM »
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Soulfire -- not sure anyone knows about that, either.  Bob does... but the White Council?  The Senior Council?  Umm... not that I recall seeing.]

I don't think that it is general knowledge, I don't think most if any of his friends know about it.  In a fight his enemies are surprised to discover that he has Soulfire.  Why? Because it isn't something that archangels commonly give out.  I don't think Michael even knows he has Soulfire, or I don't remember that he knows.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2024, 11:13:38 AM by Mira »

Offline g33k

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2024, 07:13:34 AM »
...  I don't think Michael even knows he has Soulfire, or I don't remember that he knows.
I don't think Michael knows enough about wizards & spells to have "Soulfire (yes or no)" on his radar at all.

I think Harry used it on the Cornerhounds he & Eb fought; but I'm not sure it really shows as such... it's possible Eb would just pin it down to "the kid's learned how to pack a harder punch!"

I don't think anyone else on the White Council even had a chance to see Harry use Soulfire.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2024, 02:22:59 PM »
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I don't think anyone else on the White Council even had a chance to see Harry use Soulfire.

  He used it against the Skin Walker on Demonreach, don't know if Listens to Wind witnessed that or since at that time Harry was using it to enhance his defense/offense against the Skinwalker, Listens to Wind might not have recognized it.. It is possible that the gift of Soul Fire is so rare, the White Council wouldn't know what it was if they saw it.

Offline g33k

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2024, 03:35:33 PM »
.... It is possible that the gift of Soul Fire is so rare, the White Council wouldn't know what it was if they saw it.
That seems possible, too.
Harry has it, and WoJ says Odin does...  Do we know (for sure) that anyone else has it?

Bob knows about it -- apparently, quite a lot -- and much of his "magic theory" knowledge seems White-Council-Specific (and Kemmlerite, for Evil-Bob), so it may be abstruse or rare knowledge (something only the nerdiest of WC wizards would know of; maybe even something they'd need to check their archives to ID) but I suspect it's not utterly unknown to the WC ...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 03:42:01 PM by g33k »

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2024, 11:17:44 AM »
That seems possible, too.
Harry has it, and WoJ says Odin does...  Do we know (for sure) that anyone else has it?

Bob knows about it -- apparently, quite a lot -- and much of his "magic theory" knowledge seems White-Council-Specific (and Kemmlerite, for Evil-Bob), so it may be abstruse or rare knowledge (something only the nerdiest of WC wizards would know of; maybe even something they'd need to check their archives to ID) but I suspect it's not utterly unknown to the WC ...

Agreed, Jim is still keeping his options open for future books.  However I don't think since he is a god, you can put Odin in the same category as Harry.  Was Odin ever a vanilla human? Wasn't he up there power wise as an angel to begin with, but without the restraints of either angels or archangels?

Offline Tinfoil hat

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2024, 04:15:44 PM »
That's only a good idea if they are going to be in constant contact with other wardens. In practice, the North American wardens have months to years where they rarely see one another. They have plenty of time to train in methods to avoid detection and recruit followers. Harry sees more major magical action than any other warden besides Morgan and they still think he had the free time to build his plot for world domination.

And yes, I can see that plot:

Get raised as a warlock by Justin, rebel and kill him in "self-defense".
Bob, otherwise known as the Word of Kemmler.
Take advantage of your grandfather's mercy and get trained further. Earn the trust of several Senior Council members.
Work with local law enforcement and organized crime to build contacts.
Form an alliance with the White Court and later the Winter Court.
Help overthrow the power structure of the White Court while forging "relations" with the new leaders.
Stop the heirs of Kemmler. You're not ready to advance your plans and it'll build more favor with the Senior Council.
Go to war with the Red Court with the support of the Council, Winter and the White Court emerging victorious as the new Winter Knight.
Take down the Formor and openly marry the Queen of the White Court.

Out of context it all holds together but it leaves out some things that don't add up to evil incarnate rising:

Stopping the Denarians at multiple points while resisting their efforts to recruit you, including actual coin possession.
Having KotC show up to aid rather than oppose you on multiple occasions and being ally, mentor, houseguest, baby-sitter (Molly) and drinking buddy with each of the KotC that served since you've been a wizard.
Getting Soulfire from an Archangel.
Actually, telling the Council about most of these things openly with the exceptions of Bob, the Coin and Soulfire.

It's easier to just jump to a general conclusion and summary judgement than put in the work of investigating. Just approaching Michael and asking him to address some areas of concern would get most of this. Unless they think Harry has convinced a KotC to lie for him.


Part pf Harry's problem with the WC is an Image issue. From the average WV members perspective Harry only shows up to meetings that are generally about bad news.
Harry is a young wizard who should be kissing the rings of older members, trying to make friends and networking. Instead he shows up to meetings late, in the wrong attire and with the attitude that the Council is beneath him. Harry shows up on the WC worst days delivering bad news and expects the WC to back him up.
Image Harry as a core worker, Dude got the job based on friendship  with the manager, skips meetings, shows up to criticize the work you have done, claims he can do better than you idiots.

Goes away for who knows how long. Breaks the rules ,is saved by senior management , wants your help with a project he messed up, and you are ordered to help him. Dude f***s off to who knows where.  Comes back barely contributes. And then when the project seems like its doomed to fail, shows up with a brilliant solution and gets all the credit. That's Harry from the Average WC member

All anyone knows about Harry is that he is trouble. Harry makes the barest amount of effort to make friends with members of the WC

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2024, 05:08:15 PM »
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Part pf Harry's problem with the WC is an Image issue. From the average WV members perspective Harry only shows up to meetings that are generally about bad news.
Harry is a young wizard who should be kissing the rings of older members, trying to make friends and networking. Instead he shows up to meetings late, in the wrong attire and with the attitude that the Council is beneath him. Harry shows up on the WC worst days delivering bad news and expects the WC to back him up.
Image Harry as a core worker, Dude got the job based on friendship  with the manager, skips meetings, shows up to criticize the work you have done, claims he can do better than you idiots.

Goes away for who knows how long. Breaks the rules ,is saved by senior management , wants your help with a project he messed up, and you are ordered to help him. Dude f***s off to who knows where.  Comes back barely contributes. And then when the project seems like its doomed to fail, shows up with a brilliant solution and gets all the credit. That's Harry from the Average WC member

All anyone knows about Harry is that he is trouble. Harry makes the barest amount of effort to make friends with members of the WC

Don't know if I fully agree with all of that.  He has an image problem, true, but more because in my opinion of who his mother was and how he became a full wizard in the first place.  At least when he is debated among the Senior Members, those are the issues that are brought up, see Summer Knight.  I also don't think he thinks the members of the White Council are beneath him, on the contrary he has always voiced a lot of respect for them.  That doesn't mean that he isn't critical of them and some of their actions, but that isn't the same as thinking he is better than they are.  He has made friends on the White Council, aside from his grandfather, wouldn't you call Listens to Wind and Rashid friends?  Until Peace Talks he was on good terms with Luccio and the other Wardens, the younger ones even looked up to him.  I believe he contributed a lot in the defense of Molly, he solved the mystery of who killed the Summer Knight, he uncovered that Peabody was the real murderer, and more importantly that he was manipulating the whole Council with his ink.  I'd say on the whole that for a guy who doesn't make it to every meeting, Harry contributes quite a bit to it.

Offline vincentric

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2024, 02:37:37 PM »
Harry gets resentment because he's skipped the seniority line. He's that new hire that gets promoted to VP, the new money among the established aristocrats.

He got started as a redeemed warlock and did a very short turn as McCoy's trainee. Then he was inducted into the Wardens out of merit but mostly necessity. Then the big change, Senior Warden of North America. Yes, he stopped the Heirs of Kemmler, but isn't he still a little young for such a post? Shouldn't we put him under one of the three Senior Council members who dwell there? He may be qualified but he should have an experienced mentor just to teach him the preferred WC protocols.

And Harry has a little too much arrogance and rebellion in his attitude. This reputation as a maverick makes him somewhat popular among the younger Wardens but doesn't win him any friends among the rank-and-file members. To them, he's always skipping the queue and brown nosing the Senior Council and officers of the Wardens. Harry only deals with the executives, some of whom don't like him, and usually stands against the CEO. He's like a star IT tech who always delivers but does so in as grating a manner possible short of outright insult. He's needed but not popular until the next system crash. Plus, he seems to be flirting with outside job offers that have conflicts of interest.

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2024, 03:32:01 PM »
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Harry gets resentment because he's skipped the seniority line. He's that new hire that gets promoted to VP, the new money among the established aristocrats.

 That really isn't his fault, is it?

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He got started as a redeemed warlock and did a very short turn as McCoy's trainee. Then he was inducted into the Wardens out of merit but mostly necessity. Then the big change, Senior Warden of North America. Yes, he stopped the Heirs of Kemmler, but isn't he still a little young for such a post? Shouldn't we put him under one of the three Senior Council members who dwell there? He may be qualified but he should have an experienced mentor just to teach him the preferred WC protocols.

Again, not his fault. Also I wouldn't say Harry was ever a warlock.  Not to say he hasn't flirted with dark magic, he admits that he has, but he was never a full fledged warlock.
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And Harry has a little too much arrogance and rebellion in his attitude. This reputation as a maverick makes him somewhat popular among the younger Wardens but doesn't win him any friends among the rank-and-file members. To them, he's always skipping the queue and brown nosing the Senior Council and officers of the Wardens. Harry only deals with the executives, some of whom don't like him, and usually stands against the CEO. He's like a star IT tech who always delivers but does so in as grating a manner possible short of outright insult. He's needed but not popular until the next system crash. Plus, he seems to be flirting with outside job offers that have conflicts of interest.

It is, what it is, he was never out to win a popularity contest.. Yet for a guy who supposedly is a loner, he has a lot of friends who are willing to put it on the line for him.

Offline Dina

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2024, 05:24:06 PM »
I think Harry is popular among the young wizards. Or at least, he was. I am mad at Carlos and what he can do with the young wizards he knows or mentors. But I am wondering what the WC average member will think after PT/BG. I am pretty sure everyone, elder or young, is more or less afraid of Harry. But I wonder if some of them truly valued what he did and if some of them admire him.
I agree with some of the thing tinfoil hat said, but I see the analogy is not a common business but a company of Technology or something like that, where you can skip positions based on your brilliant mind. A powerful wizard is akin to a super creative genius. Zukerberg, Gates, Musk, no matter what you think about them, they were CEO very young. And I think Harry is comparable with them because of his raw power and the fact that he finds ways to increase it even more.
Besides, when Harry became Senior Warden of USA there were very few wardens who could have done that. I do not think many people resented that choice at the moment.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Mira

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2024, 05:46:35 PM »
I think Harry is popular among the young wizards. Or at least, he was. I am mad at Carlos and what he can do with the young wizards he knows or mentors. But I am wondering what the WC average member will think after PT/BG. I am pretty sure everyone, elder or young, is more or less afraid of Harry. But I wonder if some of them truly valued what he did and if some of them admire him.
I agree with some of the thing tinfoil hat said, but I see the analogy is not a common business but a company of Technology or something like that, where you can skip positions based on your brilliant mind. A powerful wizard is akin to a super creative genius. Zukerberg, Gates, Musk, no matter what you think about them, they were CEO very young. And I think Harry is comparable with them because of his raw power and the fact that he finds ways to increase it even more.
Besides, when Harry became Senior Warden of USA there were very few wardens who could have done that. I do not think many people resented that choice at the moment.

Yes, my point is Harry didn't appoint himself to any of this nor promote himself, others did that.   It's like the nine year old genius going to MIT and blowing the curve... The normal collage aged brilliant students will resent that...

Offline Dina

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2024, 06:02:17 PM »
Most things are not really Harry's fault, but I do not think that will matter to the other WC members, again, elder or young. Some will resent him, some will b scared, some will be fascinated. But, generally speaking, it won't be good for Harry's image or popularity. But there is a wrinkle in this. Do you know the old sentence "there is no bad publicity" or that is good that they talk about you even if they do it in a mean way? Well, I am sure Harry is probably one of the most famous wizards in USA and perhaps even in the world. His reputation, good or bad, is wide. And I think that will be important some day.

Meanwhile, I wonder what will happens with the new threat that appeared in BG. I do not like their introduction but I imagine they will be important in 12M. I am talking about the Librarians.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline g33k

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Re: Has Carlos sided with the merlin against Harry
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2024, 03:02:16 PM »
Don't know if I fully agree with all of that.  He has an image problem, true, but more because in my opinion of who his mother was and how he became a full wizard in the first place ...

No, there's (much) more to it than that.
It's unclear just how big that "more" is, and the exact shape of it; but let me remind you:

Consider the Council's POV: 

1/  if Harry's story is true -- killing DuMorne was self-defense after the former Warden sent a summoned demon after him -- then Harry was raised by & apprenticed to a warlock; specifically, he was trained as a warlock (not as a WC wizard).  And we know this actually is the case, because Harry keeps showing up with weird bits of wizardly ignorance unsuited for a full WC wizard (types of lycanthrope, 3-queens model of Summer/Winter courts, "Conjuritis," etc)... but with a really-outsized suite of combat-magic.  And if his story isn't true -- DuMorne didn't attack first, it wasn't self-defense -- then he killed DuMorne in a full-blown 1st-Law-breaking warlock act.

Either way, that pre-WC background is a HUGE piece of Harry's "image problem;" it gives the overwhelming appearance of "whichever way it happened, he's still a warlock."

2/  Speaking of Harry's "outsized" combat power -- it's REALLY outsized, frighteningly-powerful:  Harry scares entire combat-platoons of Wardens.  Beginning -- as a barely-trained teen -- by taking out a fully-trained senior Warden, he moved on to vampires (all the big Courts), lycanthropes of various stripes (including the incredibly-tough Loup-Garou), on up to heavyweight Fae and thence to the Summer Lady.  It's remarked that before he turned 40 he had seen more combat that most wizards ever saw in their lives, and defeated more-powerful foes than most ever defeated... and he's still in the "dumb kid just figuring stuff out" phase of his career!  That's terrifying.

3/  When Harry first met McCoy's Sr-Council allies in the parking structure, one of them reminded McCoy "you know what he was meant to be."  Now... we don't know "what he was meant to be."  Just the Big Gun in a warlock's private brute-squad?  Or something else, something more... a reference to his mom's "Starbabe" plan?  And what about the reference to a "Destroyer" in the Morgan-POV short Journal (we don't even know what a "Destroyer" is; but presumably it's something known to (at least some of) the Senior Council)?  But there's something about Harry, about his origin and/or early training, that makes him inherently problematic and worrisome, to those who know.
 
4/  His overall attitude of disrespect for the WC and their authority paints him in a proud and arrogant light; more than one senior wizard has remarked (when Harry complained about the stifling WC rules) that Harry is unaware of the horrors unrestrained wizardry has unleashed (and every time that happens, read the subtext there of Harry having pointed-out to them the inadequacy of his training, how Justin skipped the history and the "why" and the Laws, in favor of m0Ar POWER!