Author Topic: Infected by Nemesis. What do know about how and when. What we don't know.  (Read 2477 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4203
  • Oh no, there goes Tokyo
    • View Profile
I'm talking about everyone we can reasonably guess was infected by the Nemesis bug. 

There are also characters who may not have become infected, but who were tempted into making deals that corrupted them in other ways.  For example, I wouldn't be surprised if Victor Sells, The Hexenwolf FBI agents and Leonid Kravos weren't actually infected by Nemesis, despite what Lily told Harry in Cold Days.  Simply approaching and making a deal to teach Sells and Kravos black magic would quickly corrupt them and they would be willing to do just about anything to learn more.  We saw what the hexenwolf belt almost did to Harry, so it's no mystery how FBI agents were corrupted by them.  It's possible some or all of these characters did become nemfected, but I doubt it and in any case we can't be certain.

The first character who we can reasonably guess was nemfected is Aurora.  We don't know when Nemesis got to her, just that it was before the events in Summer Knight and because Elaine was spending time in the Summer Court, she makes a pretty good suspect.  The problem is we do not have any information about anyone else who may have been visiting Summer or had contact with Aurora.  If you go back and reread the scene in Summer Knight when Harry brought a wounded Elaine to be healed by Aurora, there were one or two other humans who were working with some of the Summer Fae on a couple of artistic endeavors.  They were about as minor as characters can get.  They didn't have any lines of dialogue and weren't named, but there very presence tells us that some other mortal could have visited Summer and infected Aurora.  How it was done is a mystery.

Next is the Leanansidhe.  We know she was given the tainted athame at Bianca's masquerade party.  Lea told Harry this in Ghost Story and Mab confirmed it near the end of Battle Ground.  Cowl and Kumori handled the gifts that Bianca gave out.  Unless Cowl took the gig of acting as one of Bianca's flunkies as a second job to pay off his student loans, it's a pretty good bet he knew exactly what he was handling.  Kumori might have also been in on the plot or Cowl might have kept her in the dark and gave her a seemingly plausible explanation for their actions that night.  My guess is she knew something, but maybe not everything.  If Elaine = Kumori then her knowing that she was helping to spread the Nemesis bug makes much more sense.

Maeve was tainted by contact with Lea. So there's no real mystery here.  She must have been tainted sometime before the events in Proven Guilty.

Cat Sith was most likely grabbed by HWWBf when the malk was covering Harry's retreat.  This would be an example of direct contamination from an Outsider, not by the use of a tainted item.

Justine is a real mystery.  I doubt she was contaminated because Nemesis jumped from Maeve when Murphy shot the ice princess in the head.  Justine wasn't acting like herself for a long time before Cold Days.  In the short story Even Hand she was acting like a top flight secret agent when she chose to go to Marcone's HQ in order to evade the Fomor lord who was chasing her.  That story took place between the events in Turn Coat and Changes, but I suspect Nemesis got to her much earlier than that.  Just before the duel in the Raith Deeps in White Night, Justine surprised Harry by the confident and collected way she was able to describe the events taking place and rivalry between Skavis and Malvora.  It was almost like she wasn't the real Justine. 

But when Justine got the Nemesis bug isn't nearly important than how she got it.  That is, if I'm right that it didn't happen on Demonreach near the end of Cold Days.  Because, if I am right, then Nemesis got to Justine while she was under Lara's protection.  Justine would have been on the grounds of House Raith or at Thomas' apartment most of that time.  Here's a possible explanation how it could have happened.  Maybe it happened when she did her secret agent thing offscreen before the start of Even Hand.  I believe she infiltrated a Fomor base.  She would have been vulnerable then.  Maybe she wasn't successful and was captured but Nemesis was present in someone or something else and saw an opportunity in Justine by making it look like she had succeeded.  It would explain her demeanor with Marcone.  I haven't reread that story in a long time, but I recall that Justine came across as very calculating in her decisions and actions.  Perhaps Justine had told Harry the truth in White Night when she said medication had made her a more stable person.

What else can you think of that we know or can reasonably guess about Nemesis?  I suspect there is at least one other character who is nemfected.  Is there anyone else you think could be a Nemesis agent? 



Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1027
    • View Profile
As mentioned at the end of the other thread, I put some suspicion on Harry changing cat sith simply by interacting with him. From how Elaine puts it she was Aurora's mortal "bestie" for years. It's pretty much a given that starborn CAN change things, but I don't think they're directly vectors for Nemesis in this way, but that some things changing does directly open them to Nemesis. The fae courts and their delicate sense of balance being easy targets.
Lea for instance.. the knife gave her Nemesis as it's vector, but considering it's very presence upset the balance of the winter courts shouldn't she have not taken it to begin with? And then later I think she confronted Mab on Harry's behalf, thinking herself not beholden to Mab and it was then that Mab saw the bigger picture on what was happening with her.
Justine I think is relatively easy to guess, I don't think she ever fully recovered from what thomas did to her, combine that with her already dual manor/congenital crazy and WC feeding being both addicting and damaging to the psyche and nemesis had a meat suit to step right into that was largely unoccupied.
Start to look at what Justine has done since then interacting with both the fomor and Marcone(remembering someone put the best time for Marcone to have actually picked up the coin to be post his short story) and she's might have been spreading herself or meddling already...
Actually, taking another look at peabody.. Nemesis seems to have a thing for the well connected bureaucratic underlying just as much as the young unstable female practitioner.
That would put nameless in the same group of people Nemesis would love access to.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile

  Or..... And it may sound outrageous, Justine was a Nemesis plant from the very beginning.  What better cover than this beautiful bit of "kine" was supposedly insane, that she was given to Thomas [son of Margaret] to nibble on by Lord Raith.  More interesting, though Thomas is young, his feeding never gets out of control so that she dies, but goes far enough to counter her insanity.  In the meantime Thomas falls hopelessly in love with her, "true love," he also meets up with his brother, the star born wizard, Harry Dresden.. Hmmm, do we smell a rat here about?  Long term planning, really long term Nemesis planning..

 One step further, something is protecting Lord Raith, the theory is it is Outsiders, how about old Nemesis itself? Did Margaret realize this? Is this why when she fell in love with Malcolm, a suitable mate to produce a star born who could take on Nemesis someday she left him and set up a death curse that would hold some of Lord Raith's power in check. But her plan wasn't perfect, she had to leave her little son, Thomas behind.  And yeah, Nemesis always has a plan "B."

Odd don't you think that while Lord Raith manages to kill off all his male sons, somehow Thomas
manages to survive.  I believe that Lord Raith not only knew who the brother of Thomas was, he also knows Harry is a star born threat.  So, the gift of Justine to Thomas, outwardly she is food, nothing more.  Somehow his feeding keeps her insanity in check, they fall in love, "true love," she is willing to give her life to save his life in Blood Rites.  How did she survive that feeding? Was the severely wounded Thomas really able to stop himself in time to save her life at the cost of his own? Oh, and somehow he survived when he stopped feeding though supposedly he was dying.  Or because she was infested with Nemesis to begin with, Justine was never in an danger of death, it just looked that way..
 
What better spy could Nemesis have not just to keep Thomas in line but to keep tabs on Harry as well.  Not only that Lara feels she is in debt to Justine for willing to sacrifice herself to save her brother and saving her beloved brother.. So Justine now becomes her private secretary and confident.. Lord Raith appears to be very weak, he cannot feed, but he is still protected by Nemesis and Nemesis now has access to any of Lara's plans, also through Thomas has a handle of what Harry is up to.. Long term plan?  What went down in Peace Talks and Battle Ground is the fruit from that.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2023, 02:07:07 PM by Mira »

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2156
    • View Profile
... It's pretty much a given that starborn CAN change things ...
I'm pretty certain that's a mortal thing, a human thing; not limited to Starborn.  Human choices, free will, love...  This is potent, potent stuff in the Dresdenverse.  It dwarfs the power of the White Council, dwarfs even Mab's power.

A human choice, freely made, can split the entire universe, creating a whole new branch of reality.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2156
    • View Profile
... The first character who we can reasonably guess was nemfected is Aurora.  We don't know when Nemesis got to her, just that it was before the events in Summer Knight and because Elaine was spending time in the Summer Court, she makes a pretty good suspect.  The problem is we do not have any information about anyone else who may have been visiting Summer or had contact with Aurora.  If you go back and reread the scene in Summer Knight when Harry brought a wounded Elaine to be healed by Aurora, there were one or two other humans who were working with some of the Summer Fae on a couple of artistic endeavors.  They were about as minor as characters can get.  They didn't have any lines of dialogue and weren't named, but there very presence tells us that some other mortal could have visited Summer and infected Aurora.  How it was done is a mystery.
I don't think you can rely upon those minor characters being human.  There was all sorts of faerie glamour in play.

But I'm pretty sure Elaine herself was the Nemvector that got Aurora.
She went from Justin's enthrallment to Aurora's bargain, and likely carried Nemesis with her.


... Justine is a real mystery.  I doubt she was contaminated because Nemesis jumped from Maeve when Murphy shot the ice princess in the head.  Justine wasn't acting like herself for a long time before Cold Days.  In the short story Even Hand she was acting like a top flight secret agent when she chose to go to Marcone's HQ in order to evade the Fomor lord who was chasing her.  That story took place between the events in Turn Coat and Changes, but I suspect Nemesis got to her much earlier than that.  Just before the duel in the Raith Deeps in White Night, Justine surprised Harry by the confident and collected way she was able to describe the events taking place and rivalry between Skavis and Malvora.  It was almost like she wasn't the real Justine. 

But when Justine got the Nemesis bug isn't nearly important than how she got it.  That is, if I'm right that it didn't happen on Demonreach near the end of Cold Days.  Because, if I am right, then Nemesis got to Justine while she was under Lara's protection.  Justine would have been on the grounds of House Raith or at Thomas' apartment most of that time.  Here's a possible explanation how it could have happened.  Maybe it happened when she did her secret agent thing offscreen before the start of Even Hand.  I believe she infiltrated a Fomor base.  She would have been vulnerable then.  Maybe she wasn't successful and was captured but Nemesis was present in someone or something else and saw an opportunity in Justine by making it look like she had succeeded.  It would explain her demeanor with Marcone.  I haven't reread that story in a long time, but I recall that Justine came across as very calculating in her decisions and actions.  Perhaps Justine had told Harry the truth in White Night when she said medication had made her a more stable person.

I think Justine got infected by something in Papa Raith's collection.

We know Raith père had Outsider-magic protecting him.  We know he also had an Outsider-summoning ritual.  IIRC, there's WoJ saying he had become aware of the Starborn cycle, which is obviously linked to Outsider action; and he was working to become a power-player in the big battles to come.  He had amassed a huge library, trying to get himself up to speed.  It seems pretty likely that a relative novice, collecting like mad and scrambling for power, will make some bad decisions in this arena and unwittingly collect some very dangerous items.

Plus, it'd make good storytelling sense for Harry to get access to such a trove; and lo! his new fiance is heir to that collection.

I figure Lara had tapped poor, vague Justine to help her with sorting the collection (the odds of Justine being able to focus enough to recall anything useful, or report to others, would have seemed minimal).  But something in there spoke to her... offered her the chance to help Thomas, the chance to be with Thomas again.

What else can you think of that we know or can reasonably guess about Nemesis?  I suspect there is at least one other character who is nemfected.  Is there anyone else you think could be a Nemesis agent?

Nemesis wants to get close to the power-players...

It likely has someone near to Marcone...  Demeter/Beckitt?  She has already shown she is willing to make poor deals for power/revenge.  Marcone's enforcer, Childs?  I don't think we have much evidence, but I think *someone* close to Marcone is Nemfected.

Likewise Odin.  He's a much harder target, but even more valuable to Nemesis.  One of the Einherjaren, or even one of the Valkyries?  Again, I think we don't have any evidence, nothing shown on-screen.

I'm sure there's another Nemesis agent within the White Council.  I'm thinking someone high up amongst the Wardens, but possibly one of the Senior Council.  Luccio looks likely to me... relatively-recent psychic wound, struggling emotionally, trying to get/recover power, highly-trusted... pretty much perfect, in fact.  Plus:  Luccio would hurt Harry way more than if it were one of the minor named Wardens.

Unspotted agents seem likely in any given Faerie court.  Winter (as the primary Outsider-foe) would be most-valuable to Nemesis, but Summer can be almost as good; the Erlking's court, too.  As above, I don't think Jim has written any hints/clues/evidence onscreen for any of these.

I expect others, but none spring to mind at the moment.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2023, 09:52:12 PM by g33k »

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Quote
I figure Lara had tapped poor, vague Justine to help her with sorting the collection (the odds of Justine being able to focus enough to recall anything useful, or report to others, would have seemed minimal).  But something in there spoke to her... offered her the chance to help Thomas, the chance to be with Thomas again.

Lara made her her private secretary after Blood Rites.  Justine was also able to share plenty.. Odd that her mental illness was suddenly cured, don't you think?

Offline The_Sibelis

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1027
    • View Profile
I'm pretty certain that's a mortal thing, a human thing; not limited to Starborn.  Human choices, free will, love...  This is potent, potent stuff in the Dresdenverse.  It dwarfs the power of the White Council, dwarfs even Mab's power.

A human choice, freely made, can split the entire universe, creating a whole new branch of reality.
I mean things not meant to change, like I'm pretty sure most mortals call him Uri and Uriel isn't going to gather clouds and crack thunder on them. But Harry Dresden doing it was a threat to who he was.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2156
    • View Profile
Lara made her her private secretary after Blood Rites.  Justine was also able to share plenty.. Odd that her mental illness was suddenly cured, don't you think?

Yes indeed; I'm pretty sure mentally- and emotionally-fragile Justine, longing for Thomas, was a plum ripe for Nemesis' picking.

And there she was, sorting through Papa Raith's collection of Outsider documents & items...  Let's throw a match on that gasoline, eh?  And a lit road-flare.  And some extra kerosine.  A few handfuls of powdered trinitrotoluene.   Sprinkle some nitroglycerine.  We wanna make sure our marshmallow gets toasted!

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Yes indeed; I'm pretty sure mentally- and emotionally-fragile Justine, longing for Thomas, was a plum ripe for Nemesis' picking.

And there she was, sorting through Papa Raith's collection of Outsider documents & items...  Let's throw a match on that gasoline, eh?  And a lit road-flare.  And some extra kerosine.  A few handfuls of powdered trinitrotoluene.   Sprinkle some nitroglycerine.  We wanna make sure our marshmallow gets toasted!

No need, HWWB is there to do it for her... It may be far fetched, but consider she and Thomas were living together, her Nemfected self arranged to get pregnant and Thomas is influenced to become an assassin and nobody noticed that anything was off about her?  Me thinks you underestimate Nemesis.. ::)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1371
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Ever since Justine's reveal, I have always assumed she got infected by Nemesis early on working for Lara. How that happened is a mystery, but I would guess it was while Cowl still had agents in the White Court (assuming he doesn't have them any more..)

Lara seems more like Drakul, in that now she understands the Game, she is playing at a higher level. She isn't so worried about small stuff like merely ruling the White Court. So I can't see her allying with Outsiders or whatever. Not for the moment. But she does want to gain a lot more power, and it seems she has a strategy (given how apparently she is going for power "in a big way" according to Thomas).

Nemesis we still know frighteningly little about.
We know:
- It can possess/infect/corrupt other beings both immortal and mortal (although there might be limits on more powerful beings).
- There is a limit to how many it can "infect" although we don't know what that limit is
- It can't be detected except through the Sight (presumably only mortals and certain immortals can see it), but this is dangerous
- It's better to try and guess who it has infected as it's more "art than a skill" according to the Gatekeeper
- It's very powerful and has a lot of reach
- It is less of a planner and more an "agent of chaos" like the Joker in the Dark Knight, or Jack Sparrow (if you're feeling cheeky). It simply does "things" and sees what end it creates. It all furthers it's long term goal.
- Its long term goal is "Empty Night" "the unravelling of all things"
- Even the Gatekeeper at the focus of his power cannot always be sure
- Even Uriel might not always know given how power from the Outside works, according to WOJ
- If He Who Walks Before (Sharkface) is the harbinger and vanguard leader, and He Who Walks Behind is the assassin and ruling knight, then He Who Walks Beside (Nemesis) and is the infiltrator and sapper and agent of sabotage and espionage.
- We have no idea what a "Walker" is but that title keeps coming up, and suggests even among Outsiders the Walkers are special. The current theory is they are some sort of planeswalkers which gives them special powers in the multiverse. But we don't have any confirmation of this.
- Nemesis seems to have caused a LOT more destruction currently than his brothers/peers. It will be interesting to see if they are saving their strength or simply play far different roles (or are perhaps just a lot less effective).

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Re: Infected by Nemesis. What do know about how and when. What we don't know.
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2023, 01:17:09 PM »
Quote
- It is less of a planner and more an "agent of chaos" like the Joker in the Dark Knight, or Jack Sparrow (if you're feeling cheeky). It simply does "things" and sees what end it creates. It all furthers it's long term goal.

  I disagree with that, Nemesis does plan, the gift of the infected knife to Lea in Grave Peril is one of the early examples we know of.. The plan was to infiltrate the Winter Court, it was successful, Lea infected, Mab most likely infected, both realized it and hopefully cured themselves, Maeve not so lucky, dead, we don't know how Cat Sith became infected but he is now dead as well.  Long term goals require planning, a foundation has to be set down before one can even think of achieving the goal.  Nemesis may seem like an agent of chaos because that is the result of many of their plans, but in every case that chaos was created with a goal in mind..  We all have surmised that Aurora was infected, up for debate if Elaine was the agent or not, but there was a plan behind it.. Aurora was stopped by Harry, but even her death furthered the goals of Nemesis.  Call it luck, but when Aurora died her mantel went to the nearest vessel, who was Lily.  No, I am not saying she was infected, but Lily was a lot less capable, as in not having the knowledge or the tools to become a Lady of the Summer Court.  Thus it was much easier for Infested Maeve to dupe her, and we saw the result of that.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2156
    • View Profile
Re: Infected by Nemesis. What do know about how and when. What we don't know.
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2023, 02:01:22 AM »
...
1.  It can't be detected except through the Sight (presumably only mortals and certain immortals can see it), but this is dangerous
...
2.  It is less of a planner and more an "agent of chaos" like the Joker in the Dark Knight, or Jack Sparrow (if you're feeling cheeky). It simply does "things" and sees what end it creates. It all furthers it's long term goal.
...
3.  We have no idea what a "Walker" is but that title keeps coming up, and suggests even among Outsiders the Walkers are special.
...

I don't think the Sight is reliable... not even good at it... more like "not as useless as most methods."  The Gatekeeper is an anti-Outsider specialist and he can't be sure, even after a careful examination.

Nemesis, I think, is very much a strategic planner.  If only from the perspective of who it chooses to Nemfect

I think there are 3 Walkers -- HWW Behind, Before, & Beside.  Lash said the Walkers were "Knights" of the Outsiders, exceptionally dangerous even amongst dangerous foes.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Re: Infected by Nemesis. What do know about how and when. What we don't know.
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2023, 11:12:50 AM »
Quote
I don't think the Sight is reliable... not even good at it... more like "not as useless as most methods."  The Gatekeeper is an anti-Outsider specialist and he can't be sure, even after a careful examination.

 I believe that Rashid warned Harry about using the sight because while it may be effective the damage he did to himself wasn't worth the risk and Harry was reminded of what looking at the Skinwalker did to him.  And he saw in Rashid's face when he said that that he had suffered similar
damage from this.  Rashid then pointed to his false eye, which isn't made of steel as it appears away from the Gates, but to be made of the same material as the Gates, and was given to him by the Fates if I remember correctly.  Even using that tool, Rashid said it was still difficult to be able to spot who was infected and who was not.

Offline Con

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1416
    • View Profile
Re: Infected by Nemesis. What do know about how and when. What we don't know.
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2023, 12:46:07 PM »
I suspect the limit to how many he can infect is 13.

It's a pretty powerful number all round, but both Cornerhounds and Hunstmen of the Outside come in groups of 13.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Re: Infected by Nemesis. What do know about how and when. What we don't know.
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2023, 03:01:50 PM »
I suspect the limit to how many he can infect is 13.

It's a pretty powerful number all round, but both Cornerhounds and Hunstmen of the Outside come in groups of 13.

  Yeah, but again, we need more information.. So Nemesis is limited to infecting 13, a more important question is can each of those thirteen pass the infection on to thirteen others and so on?