Author Topic: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?  (Read 3982 times)

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2156
    • View Profile
(or has this already been discussed & resolved and I didn't spot it?)

So, Bob.
And the Nevernever.

Why is Bob always hurrying home to his skull??!?
Bob is (as of Changes, at Chichén Itzá) one of the most-powerful spirits Harry has ever met... and he has met some real doozies!

Why doesn't Bob just summon an ectoplasm body, like a Ramp flesh-mask or like Binder's goons do?
Why doesn't Bob just open a door to the Nevernever, nip across for the daylight hours, then back to the RealWorld at sunset?

TYVM for your thoughts, and/or links to the issue if it has already been resolved.

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2023, 06:49:30 PM »
(or has this already been discussed & resolved and I didn't spot it?)

So, Bob.
And the Nevernever.

Why is Bob always hurrying home to his skull??!?
Bob is (as of Changes, at Chichén Itzá) one of the most-powerful spirits Harry has ever met... and he has met some real doozies!

Why doesn't Bob just summon an ectoplasm body, like a Ramp flesh-mask or like Binder's goons do?
Why doesn't Bob just open a door to the Nevernever, nip across for the daylight hours, then back to the RealWorld at sunset?

TYVM for your thoughts, and/or links to the issue if it has already been resolved.

As you know, Bob is also on Mab's poop list, Bob is terrified of her.  It is my theory that he doesn't do as you suggested, because he can't.  Why? Mab has fixed it so he can't.. Also I don't think Bob is as powerful as you suggest, Evil Bob might be, but I think both are limited to being spirits of knowledge.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2023, 07:30:06 PM »
Bob knew how to kill immortals, he’s on every immortals poop list, and that  would include the likes of Hades who have exclusively retired to the Never Never. His terror of Mab (but not Lea, an immortal who I suspect is his “Mother” and the source of this information) is genuine, Faerie lies cluster to the mortal realms to a trip into the Never Never will inevitably mean some contact with Winter)

I have previously posited that Bob could form an ectoplasmic body around his sanctum, it would dissolve with the dawn but Bob would be safe, and he could immediately reform it. I have suggested something similar for Bonnie is likely probably in Next Book

Now there may have been safeguards in Bob’s original sanctum preventing him from doing this as there are as regards him doing the bidding of the possessor of the Sanctum. However I believe the Sanctum created by Harry may not have had these safeguards, which is why Bob wanted it in the first place. I suspect we may therefore see Bonnie first manifest the physical form we saw in Skin Game.

However I suspect the Castle as intended to be run by a spirit of intellect may itself be an enormous Sanctum with the same control measures meaning that Bob could only  manifest a physical body inside it (a nice symmetry to Bonnie) unaffected by the Dawn. Outside he would still need the skull for protection.

Offline vincentric

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 510
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2023, 08:39:56 PM »
I don't believe he can.

I don't think any spirits except for ghosts have ever formed an ectoplasmic body on their own. And even the ghosts need to be "insane." Every other entity that has been seen so far, that has formed an ectoplasmic body was either summoned or is still corporeal and uses the ectoplasm for shape changing purposes.

It makes sense though. Otherwise, the world would be a far more dangerous place.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2156
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2023, 09:48:09 PM »
As you know, Bob is also on Mab's poop list, Bob is terrified of her ...
Bob says that.
Honestly, I think he's lying.

Bob has been floating around the mortal realm serving wizards for centuries.
Do you honestly believe Mab wouldn't have taken him out (long-since!), if he was actually on her poop list?

I think he feigns fear of Winter & of Mab because he's actually Winter's agent, Mab's agent... faking this makes everyone think "Nah... he couldn't possibly be working for/with Winter!"
...Also I don't think Bob is as powerful as you suggest ...
That's how Harry describes Bob, when he sends the spirit out to protect Murphy against the LoON's in Changes.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 12:25:50 AM by g33k »

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2023, 11:25:23 PM »
Bob during Battle Ground was receiving Radio Mab the 24 hour channel for everyone on Mab’s poop list.

I am not sure Mab has him as a high priority since he was bound to the skull. Bob has effectively punished himself.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2156
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2023, 07:10:43 AM »
Bob knew how to kill immortals, he’s on every immortals poop list ...

meh.

Given how freaking many immortals there are (and presuming they all know) the chances of this "secret" remaining genuinely "secret" seem impossible.  Just ONE of them trusting the wrong confidante, or being less-than-perfect in their secrecy/security, would mean the secret would get out.

I mean, sure... they don't like it being blabbed-around as common knowledge.  But I expect that's mostly because they don't want the annoyance of rando-immortality-seekers by the metric moron-ton.

And despite his raw power, and the many heavyweights he's faced, Harry is (relatively-speaking) still new to the game.  There's so much he still doesn't know.

Offline g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2156
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2023, 07:12:40 AM »
I don't believe he can.

That seems possible.  But I find it very very odd.



... I don't think any spirits except for ghosts have ever formed an ectoplasmic body on their own ...

I think Binder summons spirits.
When they "die," they leave behind corpses that dissolve completely to ectoplasm.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2023, 07:16:01 AM by g33k »

Offline vincentric

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 510
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2023, 08:20:25 AM »
I think Binder summons spirits.
When they "die," they leave behind corpses that dissolve completely to ectoplasm.

Binder is a summoner. Summoned beings are given their bodies thru the summons, they don't manifest in reality without being called.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2023, 10:13:13 AM »
We are told in Skin Game Goodnan Grey pulls in ectoplasm from the Never to increase his mad to that say if a horse. The principle for Bob to create an ectoplasmic body would be identical.

No idea how a shapechanger gets rid of mass though I do note that both LTW and River retained their mass in shapechanging in PT and BG, so I suspect Jim hasn’t figured a convincing explanation either in his own universes rules.

One way would be to convert the mass to energy, but then you need to store that energy and then convert it back into mass, basically teleportation. BG of course contained foreshadowing Harry aging shape shifting and teleportation abilities in the future.

Offline vincentric

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 510
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2023, 01:03:21 PM »
We are told in Skin Game Goodnan Grey pulls in ectoplasm from the Never to increase his mad to that say if a horse. The principle for Bob to create an ectoplasmic body would be identical.

No idea how a shapechanger gets rid of mass though I do note that both LTW and River retained their mass in shapechanging in PT and BG, so I suspect Jim hasn’t figured a convincing explanation either in his own universes rules.

One way would be to convert the mass to energy, but then you need to store that energy and then convert it back into mass, basically teleportation. BG of course contained foreshadowing Harry aging shape shifting and teleportation abilities in the future.

Notice that Goodman Grey is a corporeal being. Bob is a spirit being. We know that he and Evil Bob can both form bodies once they are in the Never-Never, but not once do they do it in reality.

I think manifesting a body requires a link to reality that only corporeal beings innately possess. Ghosts possess the link because they were once alive and summoned beings get it thru their summoner. Spirits just don't have the required innate link.

Even the greater powers are limited in this way. The Fallen need their Coins and hosts and even Uriel only became solid after investing his abilities in Michael.

And it has to be this way. Otherwise, some minor wizard/warlock/witch would accidentally open a portal to the Never-Never and things would come pouring out.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2023, 03:15:01 PM »
The link would be through the corporeal parents, their offspring have the body images that their parents had in the same way a ghost would have it’s former bodies image. Bonnie would even have the knowledge and muscle memory of shapeshifting from Lash.

Bob can clearly interact with the physical world even in his sanctum, that is established in Storm Front.

Open a portal and things come pouring out you mean like Austin in Zoo Day?

Offline vincentric

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 510
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2023, 12:10:23 AM »
I've never thought that they can't affect the physical world. We've had plenty of evidence of that. I just think that they can't form ectoplasmic bodies.

Offline Conspiracy Theorist

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2981
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2023, 12:24:17 AM »
Bob can cross to and from the NeverNever, what’s to stop him drawing ectoplasm from the NeverNever? Dawn turns the body to jelly, so does a circle and I would presume a threshold, all drawbacks.

However it may be that the act of drawing ectoplasm exposes Bob to identification and tracing by Mab, so it maybe a matter not so much as can’t but won’t. Bob has a heightened sense of self-preservation (he’s a coward).

However Bob’s service in BG and his adoption of Winter Blue when running the Castle suggests he may no longer be on Mab’s poop list, Harry is being much more relaxed in introducing Bob to people these days.

Offline vincentric

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 510
    • View Profile
Re: Bob & the Nevernever: Did Jim make another error, or drop a clue?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2023, 12:34:20 AM »
What's stopping him from forming a body? I don't know. Maybe he makes himself Brad Pitt or Denzel Washington on those nights out and gets it on with the ladies. It's possible.

But across the entirety of the Dresden Files, we've never seen it happen. Maybe it's one of those rules, "Fae can't tell a direct lie." or "Circles block magic crossing them." I can accept one, why not the other?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 12:37:50 AM by vincentric »