Author Topic: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea  (Read 1749 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« on: May 17, 2023, 12:53:53 AM »
Currently, I don't believe that Elaine is Kumori, but the earlier thread on this topic got me to ask myself some questions.  These questions have little or nothing to do with that thread, but I think that asking the right questions, usually the simplest questions, might lead to some insights or lead us to ask other questions which have importance to the overall story, regardless of whether Elaine is Kumori.

First, if E=K how did she meet Cowl?  More specifically, when and where did Elaine meet Cowl?  If Elaine is Kumori, barring time travel, Elaine/Kumori must have of met Cowl prior to the events in Grave Peril.  We know this because in Dead Beat Harry recognized that he had seen Cowl and Kumori working as Bianca's flunkies at the vampire's masquerade party in Grave Peril.

However, that creates a problem that some readers might claim precludes Elaine from being Kumori.  After Harry killed Justin DuMorne, Elaine ran away and found sanctuary with the Summer Court, or more specifically with Aurora.  Plus, in Summer Knight, Harry told Elaine that he had searched for her.  I think he said, "I searched for you in fire and water."  So Harry used magical means in an attempt find Elaine, but because she was hiding in the Nevernever Harry's searches were futile.  If Elaine was hiding all that time, how could she have met Cowl?

There are a couple of ways around this objection.  First, for reasons we currently have no way of knowing about, Elaine might not have been the only wizard spending time with the Summer Court.  Elaine could have met Cowl in Summer and fallen under his influence there.  It's possible, but I don't think it's likely.  The reason I don't think it's likely is an Occam's Razor thing.  Unless Jim decides to kill off Kumori and leave her identity a mystery that is never solved, at some point; if E=K, we will get Elaine's backstory and learn how and why she joined forces with Cowl.  Having Elaine first meet Cowl in Summer would force Jim to create additional backstory to explain why Cowl was visiting Summer.  Unless this reason neatly ties in with events in the larger world, this would make the story more complicated than it needs to be.

The second and more logical way for Elaine to have met Cowl is before she went to Summer.  Cowl could hidden Elaine for a few days and either won Elaine over to his cause through persuasion or nemfected her and the implanted personality within Elaine convinced her to work with Cowl.  Cowl could have told Elaine that the only way to remain hidden from the White Council was to disappear for a while and suggested the best way to do this was to approach Summer for help.  Again, the nemfected agent within Elaine would have agreed with this plan and could have directed Elaine to nemfect Aurora once she was in Summer.  In theory, the real Elaine might not even know what she had done.  Elaine might have to have been made into a fine thrall for that to happen, but within the rules of the Dresdenverse it's something that's possible.

This leads to another possible objection; but more importantly, to other questions which have greater relevance to the larger story and to Harry specifically.  As I stated above, in Summer Knight Harry told Elaine that he had searched for her.  So, why didn't Harry find Elaine before she went to Summer?  For one thing, we don't know when Harry learned how to do that kind of a magical search.  Harry might not have learned how to do such a search until after he moved into Ebenezar's place and by that time it was too late to find Elaine.  It's at this point where the questions become really interesting.  If prior to his final showdown with Justin, Harry had learned how to do a magical search which could find Elaine in the mortal world, maybe Harry didn't have the time to perform such a search.  How much time did Harry have before the Wardens found him?  More specifically, exactly how long after Justin's death did the Wardens find Harry and why were they even looking for him or Justin at all?  Finally, whose idea was it to send the Wardens out in the first place?

Even if Elaine isn't Kumori, I think these latter questions may be pivotal to finding out who the other traitor is within the White Council.  Yes, through some arcane timey-wimey means, the Gatekeeper might have seen something to alert him, but do you really think Jim will use that device a second time?  He could, but IMO it's just too convenient, too easy a solution.  I think someone within the Council was in communication with Justin and when the former warden failed to make contact, they set out to find the reason why, or they knew about Harry, guessed what happened to Justin and sent the wardens to find Justin knowing they would find Harry.

I am looking forward to the time when we finally get a flashback scene which features Harry's battle with Justin but one that also tells us when and how Harry was captured by the Wardens.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 01:26:34 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2023, 01:22:27 AM »
Simplicity huh? Let's see
1 cowl is Justin, it's the simplest and best connection. Especially given the thralldom theory that's the main running for Elaine. This also solves any problems from there, he could have compelled her at some point. And considering the time gaps in fairie, it could have gone entirely unnoticed.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2023, 01:30:10 AM »
Simplicity huh? Let's see
1 cowl is Justin, it's the simplest and best connection. Especially given the thralldom theory that's the main running for Elaine. This also solves any problems from there, he could have compelled her at some point. And considering the time gaps in fairie, it could have gone entirely unnoticed.

Even if Justin is Cowl, that's not the questions I'm asking.  As far as I'm concerned, when and why Elaine may have joined Cowl's team is just window dressing for asking more important questions. 
« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 01:32:02 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2023, 02:47:23 AM »
There are a couple of ways around this objection.  First, for reasons we currently have no way of knowing about, Elaine might not have been the only wizard spending time with the Summer Court.  Elaine could have met Cowl in Summer and fallen under his influence there.  It's possible, but I don't think it's likely.  ...
The second and more logical way for Elaine to have met Cowl is before she went to Summer.  Cowl could hidden Elaine for a few days and either won Elaine over to his cause through persuasion or nemfected her and the implanted personality within Elaine convinced her to work with Cowl. 

Or the 1b possibility, Nemfected Aurora took Elaine with her on trips to the mortal earth and met with Cowl there, perhaps setting her up to be enthralled by him. Just because Harry searched for her after the fire doesn't mean he'd have noticed if she popped out of Faerie occasionally sometimes over the intervening years.  He did eventually give up sometime between the fire and Storm Front, assuming she'd died.

Personally though I think it somewhat more probable that Elaine was the vector Nemesis used to get to Aurora.  Most likely Cowl was supervising Justin's starborn plan and upon realizing Justin have been incinerated, beat the Wardens to the scene, tracked Elaine down, and took over where Justin left off with the enthrallment. Then he primed her to go to Summer asking asylum and carrying Nemesis with her.  I don't think Harry's tracking spells coming up empty is evidence against that - Cowl could almost certainly jam anything teenage Harry could do in that regard.  This possibility doesn't even strictly require her to be Kumori, although if Cowl is Simon's secret identity, their master-apprentice relationship helps explain him keeping close tabs perhaps better than just generally being two random associates with nothing more in common than Circle membership.

How much time did Harry have before the Wardens found him?  More specifically, exactly how long after Justin's death did the Wardens find Harry and why were they even looking for him or Justin at all?  Finally, whose idea was it to send the Wardens out in the first place?

We know he was free for long enough for Bob to tell him to bury the skull and come back for it later if he survived, lest the Wardens capture and destroy him.  He could have taught Harry some tracking spells at the time but they failed.  I'd guess he was on the lam for perhaps a matter of days, but likely not multiple weeks.

Simon investigating his apprentice' disappearance and calling in the Wardens also fits quite a bit of this.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2023, 02:56:51 AM »
Even if Justin is Cowl, that's not the questions I'm asking.  As far as I'm concerned, when and why Elaine may have joined Cowl's team is just window dressing for asking more important questions.
well ask those questions then? Cause everything that follows is based on Elaine being kumori without consideration for primary theory behind it. She's Justin/cowls thrall. I couldn't find anything else beyond that simplicity being unaccounted for.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2023, 08:05:27 AM »
Simplicity huh? Let's see
1 cowl is Justin, it's the simplest and best connection. Especially given the thralldom theory that's the main running for Elaine. This also solves any problems from there, he could have compelled her at some point. And considering the time gaps in fairie, it could have gone entirely unnoticed.
Pretty much this.^^

As for Harry being able to track Elaine, I think Harry learned the basics of scrying and/or thaumaturgy from Justin. It's one of Harry's chief skills (he claims), although he admittedly hardly does it anymore. But even if Justin didn't teach him it, Ebenezar likely would have. In order to be a White Council wizard, Harry needed a baseline level of knowledge, and Ebenezar would have made sure he was educated enough. He even wrote a book on the basics which according to Harry most young wizards read as part of their education.

But if Cowl is Justin, he would know exactly the skills Harry would employ to track them, and be quite able to throw him off. And this assume Justin doesn't have a deal with some big demon or something like that to hide himself. Even if Cowl isn't Justin, he still would have the skill and resources to hide himself and Kumori from Harry.

If E=K, she would also know how Harry might search for her and be able to employ counter-measures. Not to mention, if she did in fact run to Summer, she could well have been shielded from Harry by them.

To answer the questions about the events immediately following Justin's apparent demise, one would need to know more information. That said, we know Warden's are capable of tracking dark magic and given Justin was a Warden, his absence would have been noted. Also, Ebenezar was looking for Harry - Morgan tells us that Eb and the Wardens were looking for Harry (because the Council wanted to keep tabs on him - read the Morgan microfiction entry "Journal") while Justin "adopted" (read: kidnapped) him. So I suspect it wouldn't have been long after the duel that the Wardens would have found Harry. Especially since a Walker was involved. Likely the Gatekeeper might have sensed such things. Perhaps by that point they knew of Justin's betrayal and descent into darkness.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2023, 11:09:48 AM by Yuillegan »

Offline Melriken

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2023, 05:22:43 PM »
I think you are short selling the Gatekeeper saying Jim wouldn't use the same trick twice...

Of course the Gatekeeper would use the same trick twice, and many more... it's a good trick, the real question is why doesn't the Gatekeeper detect Black Magic and send someone after it more often... but an Outsider trying to kill an apprentice wizard and that apprentice turning it back on the master and then killing that master wizard (a former warden) is exactly the kind of thing the Gatekeeper would get involved in and Jim would use that.

Also if E=K then S=C or J=C (likely S) so E likely knew C before J died and likely C helped hide E...

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2023, 11:35:02 PM »
but an Outsider trying to kill an apprentice wizard and that apprentice turning it back on the master and then killing that master wizard (a former warden) is exactly the kind of thing the Gatekeeper would get involved in and Jim would use that.

I don't doubt Harry's actions made a lot of noise ... but I don't think the Walker was making a serious shot at his life at that point. From the unclouded memory flashback in GS, it was pretty clearly trying to goad him into using magic for violence.  It got more than it was bargaining for with setting a gas pump on fire, but if it had wanted him dead, it could have done it easily.

I'm also not even sure Justin was really the one who sent it, for that matter. I think Harry might have that assumption wrong.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2023, 05:58:53 AM »
Cowl isn't Justin.
Evidence in verbal exchange with evil bob
Zero familiarity in my opinion.
even outside of Justin it's very common for people to point out his familiarity with what Bob was and what he knew. Cowl knew not only of Bob but that Bob would have enough of the details of the hallow for him to perform it without the Word itself. If you're talking familiarity as in acquaintance by word of speech, I wouldn't expect him to have that sort of relationship with what he'd consider a computer.
I don't doubt Harry's actions made a lot of noise ... but I don't think the Walker was making a serious shot at his life at that point. From the unclouded memory flashback in GS, it was pretty clearly trying to goad him into using magic for violence.  It got more than it was bargaining for with setting a gas pump on fire, but if it had wanted him dead, it could have done it easily.

I'm also not even sure Justin was really the one who sent it, for that matter. I think Harry might have that assumption wrong.
indeed. Harry said it himself somewhere in there about teaching a young wizard to use magic for violence, and HWWBH certainly taught him a key detail he's kept faith with since then, it's for fighting back against the monsters. Funny detail that it was probably the gas tank fire that actually did anything to him at all.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2023, 06:12:11 AM by The_Sibelis »

Offline Mira

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2023, 11:00:19 AM »
Quote
However, that creates a problem that some readers might claim precludes Elaine from being Kumori.  After Harry killed Justin DuMorne, Elaine ran away and found sanctuary with the Summer Court, or more specifically with Aurora.  Plus, in Summer Knight, Harry told Elaine that he had searched for her.  I think he said, "I searched for you in fire and water."  So Harry used magical means in an attempt find Elaine, but because she was hiding in the Nevernever Harry's searches were futile.  If Elaine was hiding all that time, how could she have met Cowl?

Let me say right now that I agree, I don't believe that Elaine is Kumori. However you will remember in the caves of the Raith Estate in White Night when Harry and Cowl had a little confrontation, Cowl entered and left via a way though a very nasty part of the Nevernever bringing a group of nasties with him.  That says he may have spent some time there making friends.. During that time, while improbable, it is possible that Elaine met him there.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2023, 09:37:57 AM »
Cowl isn't Justin.
Evidence in verbal exchange with evil bob
Zero familiarity in my opinion.
And yet, Cowl knew about Evil Bob in the first place. I doubt Cowl and Evil Bob would have a similar relationship to Harry and normal Bob, so if you're expecting that sort of familiarity you would probably be disappointed.

The relationship is a very clear one of master and servant. What would such a conversation sound like if it was more "familiar"?

I don't doubt Harry's actions made a lot of noise ... but I don't think the Walker was making a serious shot at his life at that point. From the unclouded memory flashback in GS, it was pretty clearly trying to goad him into using magic for violence.  It got more than it was bargaining for with setting a gas pump on fire, but if it had wanted him dead, it could have done it easily.

I'm also not even sure Justin was really the one who sent it, for that matter. I think Harry might have that assumption wrong.
I think that's clear from Lea's hints in Ghost Story. Justin may have summoned HWWBh, but I doubt he was calling the shots. More likely reporting back to his superiors...


Offline Mira

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2023, 10:06:52 AM »
Quote
And yet, Cowl knew about Evil Bob in the first place. I doubt Cowl and Evil Bob would have a similar relationship to Harry and normal Bob, so if you're expecting that sort of familiarity you would probably be disappointed.

The relationship is a very clear one of master and servant. What would such a conversation sound like if it was more "familiar"?

Cowl could easily be Kemmler then, because before he was "Bob," he was the servant of Kemmler, then Justin and evil version of himself that we saw when Harry ordered Bob to recall that version of himself... That version, clearly "Evil Bob" tried to kill Harry. 

Quote
I think that's clear from Lea's hints in Ghost Story. Justin may have summoned HWWBh, but I doubt he was calling the shots. More likely reporting back to his superiors...
I agree, he wasn't calling the shots, it is also clear Justin knew what he was looking for when he adopted those two orphans.  Where did he get that information?

Offline Melriken

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2023, 05:07:32 PM »
I don't doubt Harry's actions made a lot of noise ... but I don't think the Walker was making a serious shot at his life at that point. From the unclouded memory flashback in GS, it was pretty clearly trying to goad him into using magic for violence.  It got more than it was bargaining for with setting a gas pump on fire, but if it had wanted him dead, it could have done it easily.

I'm also not even sure Justin was really the one who sent it, for that matter. I think Harry might have that assumption wrong.
I agree, the walker was trying to goad Harry, either to get him to use black magic to corrupt him or just playing with his food for fun (I lean to corrupting Harry)

I think Justin did send it and sent it to get Harry to use Black Magic not kill Harry. I always thought that Harry knew it was Justin that sent it because Harry had managed to reflect the summons back on the summoner and the Walker had killed Justin as a result, but I didn't see that in a re-read so I don't know where that idea came from.

Regardless, from the outside it looks like an outsider trying to kill a wizard and should have gotten the Gatekeeper's attention, so I wonder why it didn't.

Offline Melriken

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2023, 05:12:55 PM »
Cowl could easily be Kemmler then, because before he was "Bob," he was the servant of Kemmler, then Justin and evil version of himself that we saw when Harry ordered Bob to recall that version of himself... That version, clearly "Evil Bob" tried to kill Harry.
No, Kemmler wouldn't need the word in the first place.

If E=K then Simon didn't die at Archangel and is Cowl...  This would Devastate both Harry (because Elaine) and Eb (because Simon) and feels like Jim.

Offline The_Sibelis

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Re: If E=K: A different way to look at this idea
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2023, 05:17:19 PM »
I really rather doubt Eb will survive for that pay off anyway. That's end game stuff and Harry's gonna have the BS by then. No way Eb's surviving. Though to me that's a good reason it's not Simon, there's no personal pay off for Harry there. No revelation in his identity 🤷‍♂️